Saturday, September 10, 2005

Silence and forgetting in Nair India

-By Lakshmi Kutty

I've grown up in an extremely caste-silent family and extended social scene. By caste-silent I mean that what caste we were, what our neighbors' or friends' caste backgrounds were, differences in ritual or interactive aspects between various castes, general statements about 'caste oppression in rural areas', comments on news articles discussing caste, etc., rarely found a place in home conversations. Then, of course, there weren’t many occasions where there was enough interest for opinions or discussions around caste to emerge, mostly because we mixed and moved with others of our kind and didn’t stray too far.
Most of my school and college experience has also been similarly devoid of any interest or awareness viz-a-viz caste. Except for the mandatory four-fold caste-system classification I learnt in textbooks, and which signified discriminatory practices. So it was quite in order that I thought 'caste' existed in worlds other than mine, where people were tradition-bound and conservative. I knew I was a malayali nair, but I never knew what my caste meant socially. I was quite proud of the fact that I didn’t know any deeper than that; wasn't it proof that there was no caste in my modern life and outlook? I even remember being excited at one point when I figured out that in south India, we didn’t have the same caste system that was taught to us as 'the Indian caste system'! I remember feeling happy that the community divisions of us southies did not correspond to what was commonly understood and accepted as the four-varna caste system... which was a largely north and central India categorization. At that time, this for me was a subversion of the highest order!!!
This is not to say that attitudes/knowledge regarding caste haven’t operated at all in my making-unmaking. The silence is of a peculiar nature, it has its own codes and its own language of expression. Looking back now, I think it is characteristic of a well-settled middle class, 'high' caste family to inculcate this silence and disavowal about caste within its immediate social sphere; surnames of friends, fathers' names, people's hometowns, their food habits, these were regular conversation tidbits at home, but 'no, never caste'! Most of my relatives and friends who come from similar caste-class backgrounds share this peculiar silence. I say peculiar silence because it did not insist on intricate knowledge and visible observance of one's caste location and corresponding behaviours/attitudes (except, maybe, with marriage), but it was opinionated enough against challenges to the status quo (read, 'the general good') posed by struggles against caste hierarchy and oppression, like, say, with reservations.
Also, knowledge of or engagement with one's caste status/location is unimportant to those of us who are situated at the centre of things, and are socialized and treated like that. I remember a Malayali school friend of mine becoming extremely worried that we would stop talking to her after some exchange of school documents among us made us all aware of each other's caste and of her OBC status. I seriously couldn’t fathom at that time why she was so tensed that after 3 years of intense group bonding the rest of us would turn against her. I remember that the rest of us didn’t even know what OBC meant exactly and why it would come between us. But this friend knew; her caste status would not allow for that knowledge to be absent from her life.
Apart from my caste status, and my nearly homogenous social interactions, sometimes I think that being in a metro like Mumbai might have something to do with the silence around questions of caste in conversations and socializing, because the promise of this city is in the non-markedness of specifics and in the global oneness that it offers. When I learnt that technically nairs also belonged among the 'untouchable' castes in Kerala, I was initially shocked at how I had never known this from within my family space and had picked it up from an academic presentation. But on second thoughts, why would this information be relayed through and within nair families at all?! Identity marking at least among the one local nair community in Mumbai that I'm familiar with is heavily invested in situating the nairs' central presence in the religio-cultural history of not only Kerala, but also the nation (?) at large. Last year, for the first time, their annual Ayyappa procession took a longer detour through a Marathi-speaking community's fairly old wayside shrine dedicated to Gaondevi with walls plastered with photos of Durga, Kali and Shiva!
Of late, during our 'native place' visits to Thrissur, Kerala, I've been coming across several instances of coded caste practice, which because they didn’t seem open prohibitions to my eye I've never recognized earlier. It was only recently that I heard my grandmother lament that now even the lower castes are participating in the village temple's annual festival, and what's more, are collecting door-to-door funds as they want to be one of the many groups who sponsor firecrackers for the festival!!! This in a house where all the workers were lower caste and I as a child was never told to stay away or not hang out with them/their children. A visit to our neighbouring namboodiri (Brahmin) family saw everyone grieving at the loss of a high caste bathing/washing space (the temple pond), which of late had been taken over by workers and their families who bathed and washed their clothes and made the pond dirty. As we left their house, my father told me how years ago he and his family used to be served tea in separate tumblers in this house, which they had to wash and keep separately after their use, and how ironic it was that today time has brought them to include him their pond-loss lament!!!
These experiences of my socialization point out that identifying caste practice in only certain typical ways blinds the eye to a whole gamut of religio-cultural behavior and hierarchies that are actually deeply embedded in rules of caste difference. And this feeds the silence around caste, mine or another's, which then reiterates the belief that caste does not exist in our practices and outlooks.

[Lakshmi Kutty is a fellow at Sarai, Delhi and is currently assisting Forum Against Oppression of Women activists in the rapid survey on Working Women in Dance Bars of Mumbai]

93 Comments:

At 4:02 AM, Blogger Vijay Menon said...

Lakshmi,
little knowledge is always dangerous. please find all facts about Nair and other castes.
Like you I too grew up in somewhat cosmopolitan industrial center of jamshedpur. In 80s there was no nuisance of caste quotas, so people were not aware of caste.
Today caste politics has made people super charged about caste.
You should know in karnatak, kerala the caste system was different frm North-chaturvarna caste system. Nairs like other Kshatriyas, shettys, marathas were not untouchables as in North, they were landlords, aristocrats, militarymen, intellectulals. The basic difference is majority of these castes like other upper castes are indo-aryan mixed races. The SC/STs, majority OBCs are aboriginals. You can see the difference in skin color and the body features. upper castes are lighter skinned and sharper features. That is in itself a major factor in daily life in India, howsoever much you may dispute it in theory. That will remain; and the solution is not to mix, cross breed and integrate all these castes into one huge homogeneous inferior-in-all-respects gene pool. The diversity must remain, that is then essence of life. The objective should be to take caste out of the purview of peoples daily life- work, relationships and freindships. And it was happening in urban and semi urban india, until Mandal politics came up. Now, except the upper class/ rich people caste awareness is fundamental for all upper caste people who have to make a living by competing in the marketplace. Every time somebody fails they will lash out at the quota-based-low castes for snatching the opportunities in an unfair, biased and distorted manner. All great countries are built on sound rules, reulalations, laws which are objective and same for everybody, no favoritism, bending or rules for some is allowed. SO quotas can never make a great country. Poor need to compensated by social security in terms of food and shelter. Rationing resources and opportunites on proportion of population is not acceptable, as upper castes as a group are not a single identity, every human being is an individual, they cannot be treated as a group, every single person is born free. If you keep quotas/rationing then it is better to divide society totallly among castes, that makes more sense.
Nair caste is genetically a blessed group, all empirical evidence suggests that from their success in all fields for the last 2000 years- be it military, science, administration, education, business. That needs to be mainitained and propagated. It is not being caste-centered or anything like, it is just to make sure that this rich resource is not lost in phoney speeches about social justice and eliminating castes, that will happen eventually as our society evolves.
Please read more about nairs- travel to Malabar/north kerala, learna bout the nair heritage and then make an opinion.

please read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nair
http://www.answers.com/topic/nair


Origins and History
According to Chattambi Swamigal, who interpreted ancient Tamil texts, Nairs were a Dravidian nobility called the "Naka Lords" (Nagas). Ancient South Indian history refers to the Nairs as a martial nobility, eminent historians, and foreign travelers.

The origin of the Nair caste is uncertain. Some anthropologists are of the view that the Nairs are not indigenous to Kerala, as many customs and traditions distinguished them from other Keralites. Some examples are their own form of inheritance (Marumakkathaayam), warfare (Kalaripayattu), gods and goddesses (Nagas or serpents, and Bhadhrakali), and numerous sub-castes and surnames.

One theory is that Nairs are the descendants of the Newars of Nepal, who migrated to Kerala. There are two major facts to support this view. The first is the lighter complexion, and sharper features of Nairs. The second is the distinct pagoda-like architectural style of Nair Tharavaadus and Temples. Finally, there is the Marumakkathaayam system of inheritance. This system is a matrilineal system which is also practiced by the Newars of Nepal. Certain anthropologists and historians contest the first fact by saying that Nairs were originally a Dravidian people, but gained the lighter complexion and sharper features due to the inter-marriages with the Namboothiris. This however does not describe why Nairs have different practices, and also why many Nairs are just as fair, if not fairer than many Namboothiris.

Another theory is of the Sythian (Sakas as they were called in ancient India) origin of Nairs. The unique position of Nairs i.e. being rulers, landowners and warriors are similar to other races in India like the Marathas, Jats, Shettys who are not Kshatriyas, yet hold that position and yet do not come under the Chaturvarna classification of Hinduism. The Sakas who came as conquerers into India and were gradually assimilated into the Indian society (like the White Huns who were the forerunners of the Rajputs of Rajasthan). This theory has an added impetus when you consider the similarities in Surnames among North European and India- some examples are as follows:

Europe India
Mann Mann (Punjab/Haryana)
Gore Gore (Maharashtra)
Mc Nair Nair (Kerala), Nayar (Punjab)

One finds mention of the Nairs during the reign of the King Rama Varma Kulashekhara (1020-1102) of the second Chera dynasty, when the Chera Kingdom was attacked by the Cholas. The Nairs fought by forming suicide squads (Chavers) against the invading force. It is not clear whether the Cheras themselves were Nairs, or if the Cheras employed the Nairs as a warrior class.

The Nairs gradually lost their supremacy over the land after the collapse of the second Chera kingdom. By this time, the Namboothiris replaced the Nairs as the seniormost class in the social hierarchy of Kerala.

Classification controversy
There is considerable controversy regarding the actual place of Nairs in the caste system, in determining whether they are Kshatriyas or not. One of the main reasons is that the caste system in Kerala is very different from the caste system elsewhere in India. According to the caste system followed in the rest of India, only the lowest classes, the Dalits, were considered to be "Untouchables". However, in the case of Kerala, anyone who was not a Namboodiri, was treated by the Namboodiris as an Untouchable. This included other Brahmins too, like Konkanastha, Saraswat, Iyer etc. The Namboodiris had different rules regarding the degrees of pollution for the different classes. A Namboothiri could be "polluted" only by the touch of a Nair, whereas the other classes had different distances after which they could be considered polluting. For example, if an Ezhava got within 24 feet of a Namboothiri, the Namboothiri was considered to be polluted.

In the rest of India, warfare was the profession of the Kshatriyas. According to this interpretation, Nairs would seem to be more like Kshatriyas since they were a martial class as well. Similar to Kshatriyas, they were only second to the Brahmins (Namboodiris). Furthermore, many Nair families were aristocratic. They owned large feudal estates.

Etymology of "Nair"
Historically speaking, Nairs are a group priding courage, excellence, and honour on the battlefield. The word Nair is either derived from the Sanskrit word Nayaka (leader) or Naga (snakes, which the Nairs worshipped). Nair is also seen in other parts of the world - although no direct linkages with Nairs in Kerala have been established.

 
At 12:57 AM, Blogger Biju said...

Vijay,
A few things.
First, although Nairs were aristocrats, they were spiritually designated Shudras by the Namboothiris when they came to Kerala. Secondly, dispensing with caste-ism does not magically make the whole of India homogenouse, and therebye geneologically invalid. The caste names - especially Nair within the Nair category, involve hundreds upon hundreds of families, and even different subcategories. The Nair caste is not a "genetically blessed group." It is simply a group, a family, with a great past, with many notworthy members, and many black sheep and idiots like many other large groups. We should be proud of our heritage, and it should inspire us to do great things, but we should never feel that we are destined for greatness by accident of birth, just as we should not say the reverse - that other people are destined to failure by their birth.

I feel we should eliminate the negative aspects of caste - To believe in this "negative" caste system is to believe that your birth is a written book - and if history has taught us anything it is that we can change - a farmer can become a great warrior, just as a great king can end up a pauper. I think the Nair name is a great name, filled with a rich history - and we should revel in it, learn about it, teach our children about it. It is apart of us. But we should not be constrained, nor constrain others in thought or deed because of it.

-Biju Sukumaran

 
At 6:11 AM, Blogger manukarnika said...

Lakshmi,

Interesting post and interesting reactions.

Nairs were considered Shudra by the Namboothiris and as were in some parts of Kerala expected to walk 12 feet behind a Namboothiri.

I feel sorry for people like Vijay Menon who says [quote]The SC/STs, majority OBCs are aboriginals. You can see the difference in skin color and the body features. upper castes are lighter skinned and sharper features. [/unquote] This is a case of the mind clouding the eyes. Nairs come in all shapes and forms just like all Indians, we should just look around our own families with unclouded eyes.

In the bedroom (or the bush wherever it happened in those days) there was no untouchability. No group of human population can be more mixed than the caste-ridden Indian milieu. Here's a pic of a Nair family http://www.harappa.com/photo2/sifr.html
It is one family, but as you can see they could be from the so called different castes if you want to go by their looks.

Swami Vivekananda called Kerala a Lunatic Asylum (Branthalayam) of castes, I guess some of us have not got out of the Branthalayam yet.

For those who lament reservation, may be you should try living in that Branthalayam at the receiving end.

Biju,every name is a great name, every individual is a great individual, I would say all those pariah theeiya people who lived in that Branthalayam and survived are the real heroes of this sorry tale.

 
At 5:21 PM, Blogger manukarnika said...

Vijay Menon, as you can see below, caste system did no one any good, so please don't tell me about the non-untouchability of Nairs. Would you like it today if someone told you that you have to walk 6 paces behind him?

And well...about the homeogeneity of the castes and about lighter skins and sharper features, and the solution being not to "mix" as you say, you and I are all very "mixed" as you can see below.

http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:z5quSXCd9PgJ:www.jaihoon.com/watan/indarbmappilacommunity.htm+namboothiri+pollution+rules+feet&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=in

The minimum panalty to those who violated the law was excommunication or often death. ‘Under the native rajas, Nairs thought nothing of cutting down on the spot a number of lower castes who had approached with polluting distance of his person.24 If a man of lower caste were by misfortune to touch a Nair lady her relatives would immediately kill her and like wise the man who touched her and all his relatives 25 This shows that even blood relations were undermined to maintain the caste laws.

The author of Cochin State Manual observes that, “the tradition fostered by the Brahmins ascribes to the mandate of Parasurama which ordained that Sudra women would put of chastity and devote themselves to satisfy the desire of Brahmins.26 We have interesting accounts of the social customs like sambandham by which a Namboodiri can cohibit with any Nair lady be likes without bothering of future obligations or liability.27 Writing in the year 1900. T.K. Gopala Panikkar describes that, at present day there are families, especially in the interiour of the district (Malabar) who look up on it as a honour to be thus united by Brahmins.”28 Giving evidence before the Malabar Marriage Commission of 1891, the District Munsiff of Badagara said; “ Polyandry seems to have been largely prevalent in its worst form in South Malabar in the earliest times.

Instances in which a woman has 27 and 12 husbands who visited her by rotation are even now mentioned by some old men.”29

Another social custom imposed by the aristocracy was that except the Namboodiris no men and women should cover the upper half of their body.

 
At 6:57 AM, Blogger Haiku said...

Grow up people, live in today's world! In this real world being a Sudra (do the Nairs' have reservation?) may be a blessing!
The poor 'ole Namboodri (never mind the importance his great grandfather may have commanded) still has to earn his living maybe cleaning toilets at Heathrow or Dubai airport! And the Nair women today may not have the rights she had in days gone by!

 
At 1:34 PM, Blogger Pradeep said...

Iam a Brahmin from Karnataka, Mysore. I love a Malayali Nair girl very intensely, more than my life i should say and it is the same from her side too. We dont care much about our castes, rather we give more importance to the understanding we share and the faith we have in each other. I can convince my parents, who though orthodox would happily welcome her for the sake my happiness, but the problem would be to convince her parents, who are very particular about their caste. Lets see what fate holds for us, i hope we break all these caste barriers and start giving more importance to human relations. I am sure the world would be a much better place then.

 
At 8:49 PM, Blogger manoj said...

Laxmiji

I hope you read this. You seem to an half literate pretending to be an expert on India's social classes. For your information, the chaturvaranya system that classified castes into four tiers and one below the tier existing only in Northern India.
Societies south of Vindhyas only had castes and there was no five-tier system. By the chaturvaranya system, the PAtels of Gujarat, the Marathas of Maharashtra and the Reddys of Andhra are 'Shudras'. The economic and political power of these castes, even in the past, makes it stupid for them to be classified as 'Shudras'. Nairs come in the same category. Marathas were the ruling castes of Maharastra but they are not Kshatriyas like Nairs.

 
At 1:08 PM, Blogger amrutham said...

The original purpose of the caste system was social stratification according to occupation so that society could function in harmony. But gradually it became exploitative, giving rise to social injustices and inequality among the people. one of the vulgarity that prevails is the practice of of tagging cast or clan sufficxes to given names like viyay menon, MC nair , Rk Pilla. sk achary rk varma etc etc. Here one may wonder what this particular person name is? what does MC, RK, SK stands for. Actulay that is their name. A name definetely stands for a persons individuality. but here those perverted fundamentalists cut short their name into mere alphabets and highlighted their caste names with a vain feeling that they well be more respected than anybody else in the group. its a false feeling i dare say. Because whoever as mentioned above go through the dominance of casteism can easliy under stand what prevailed in keralas nasty social caste system, where people are treated like animals. Mr menon please go through the article i append below and think twice or hundred times whom u are and where ur pedigree comes from. After all u may be aware of ur relatives only 35 or 45 years back. before that period whom u know. any idea abour your grandfather's brothers or their children. hhhaaa. i know a big no is ur answer. so please dont be arrogant that u suffix a caste name and taken birth in that family. when ever u get time go through historical articles and u may find innumerable personalities whom , do not claim any pedigree or high family background become prominent personalities. You know Marumakkathayam (nephew-centred matriliny) was a joint family structure and sambatham (cohabitation only at night) a sort of cohabitation that was spontaneously developed by the Nairs of Kerala. The Namboothiris conveniently made use of the existing Nair joint family system in order to develop their combination of veli (official marriage) and sambatham marriages. The Nairs considered co-opting the Namboothiris into the system as bliss as the latter was considered to be the most respected people in society. The Nair women thought sleeping with Namboothiris to be a blessing for the good acts of their previous life. That the Nair caste was a polluting one to the Namboothiris added more prestige to the cohabitation.
The Namboothiris did not encourage the Shektria and Vaisiya castes, or varnas, in Kerala as in the rest of the country. They cleverly used the Nair caste to do the functions of the Shektria and Vaisiya castes. The Nairs were forbidden to do work and engage in business. Manual labour was the fate of the untouchable lower castes. Thus, manual labour came to be looked upon as something denigrating. The Vaisiya varna was replaced in Kerala by the Arabs and the Christians at different times in history. The negative attitude towards manual labour persists in the state even today.
hope ur eyes might open .all human beings are equal. if u are fair complexion pls go and work under sun for a week in a paddy field or some menial job that u may not come done in ur entire life. then see the complexion . ANd u understand. God has given all human beings equal organs irrespective gender. its the man made circumstances that make them different.

 
At 1:09 PM, Blogger amrutham said...

The original purpose of the caste system was social stratification according to occupation so that society could function in harmony. But gradually it became exploitative, giving rise to social injustices and inequality among the people. one of the vulgarity that prevails is the practice of of tagging cast or clan sufficxes to given names like viyay menon, MC nair , Rk Pilla. sk achary rk varma etc etc. Here one may wonder what this particular person name is? what does MC, RK, SK stands for. Actulay that is their name. A name definetely stands for a persons individuality. but here those perverted fundamentalists cut short their name into mere alphabets and highlighted their caste names with a vain feeling that they well be more respected than anybody else in the group. its a false feeling i dare say. Because whoever as mentioned above go through the dominance of casteism can easliy under stand what prevailed in keralas nasty social caste system, where people are treated like animals. Mr menon please go through the article i append below and think twice or hundred times whom u are and where ur pedigree comes from. After all u may be aware of ur relatives only 35 or 45 years back. before that period whom u know. any idea abour your grandfather's brothers or their children. hhhaaa. i know a big no is ur answer. so please dont be arrogant that u suffix a caste name and taken birth in that family. when ever u get time go through historical articles and u may find innumerable personalities whom , do not claim any pedigree or high family background become prominent personalities. You know Marumakkathayam (nephew-centred matriliny) was a joint family structure and sambatham (cohabitation only at night) a sort of cohabitation that was spontaneously developed by the Nairs of Kerala. The Namboothiris conveniently made use of the existing Nair joint family system in order to develop their combination of veli (official marriage) and sambatham marriages. The Nairs considered co-opting the Namboothiris into the system as bliss as the latter was considered to be the most respected people in society. The Nair women thought sleeping with Namboothiris to be a blessing for the good acts of their previous life. That the Nair caste was a polluting one to the Namboothiris added more prestige to the cohabitation.
The Namboothiris did not encourage the Shektria and Vaisiya castes, or varnas, in Kerala as in the rest of the country. They cleverly used the Nair caste to do the functions of the Shektria and Vaisiya castes. The Nairs were forbidden to do work and engage in business. Manual labour was the fate of the untouchable lower castes. Thus, manual labour came to be looked upon as something denigrating. The Vaisiya varna was replaced in Kerala by the Arabs and the Christians at different times in history. The negative attitude towards manual labour persists in the state even today.
hope ur eyes might open .all human beings are equal. if u are fair complexion pls go and work under sun for a week in a paddy field or some menial job that u may not come done in ur entire life. then see the complexion . ANd u understand. God has given all human beings equal organs irrespective gender. its the man made circumstances that make them different.

 
At 5:34 PM, Blogger Niralamban said...

nairs are shudras of kerala not kshathriyas.
in addition kshathriyas (eg:-varmas) and brahmins (eg:-namboodiris) were present in kerala.
the cast that was almost absent in kerala were vyshyas.

refer malabar manual page 92 if in doubt about whether nair is shudra

there is a conspiracy going on to turn nairs kshathriyas i think

 
At 9:30 PM, Blogger പാച്ചു said...

Mr.Niralamboooo,

"Don't you know I have achieved a great victory recently in Malabar and over four lakh Hindus were converted to Islam? I am determined to march against that cursed 'Raman Nair' very soon."
- TIPU SULTAN's letter to one of his General, 1789

Do you know who is this Raman Nair? .....Actually, the reference is to Rama Varma Raja of Travancore State who was popularly known as Dharma Raja.

So it means there is no caste called VARMA exists in this world..They all were and are NAIRS only....whether it's Calicut Zamorin (Saamoothiri) or TRAVANCORE KINGS...

ALL are NAIR's only...But later these Samanthan Nair's try to create a separate identity altogether for whatever reasons....

If you feel VARMAs were the actual warrior class, then why we don't have a VARMA ARMY in history..eh?...

Infact the personnel army of TRAVANCORE KINGS itself were called NAIR ARMY...(which later merged into Madras Regiment after Independence.)

If you don't know about NAIR's and what they did to this country by protecting our women & children and temples from intruders like TIPU ask some Namboothiri / any other creed or their children who have fled from North Malabar to Travancore for shelter when TIPU murdered and raped Namboothiri women....ASK them man...

It's ridiculous that you feel 'there is a conspiracy going on to turn NAIRS to kshathriyas'...:-)

I would say there is a conspiracy going on to turn NAIRS into SUDRAS.. :-)

 
At 11:00 AM, Blogger Niralamban said...

@above


first of all tipu sultan may not have been an expert in caste system in kerala...
you should refer to someone who have conducted relevant studies...
try my reference, pachu...


and the army need not consist of kshatriyas - it could consists of sudras too...
Kshatriya is not the cast of SOLDIERS - it is the cast of kings...
sure khsatriya's could be soldiers too...
so the fact that nairs were soldiers does not imply they were kings...

and all kshatriyas are dwija's... they learn veda... they have upanayanam and a poonool...
nairs were just another untouchable cast...

 
At 10:52 PM, Blogger പാച്ചു said...

Again @Niralamban .. :-)

I can understand what you are upto!....
You want to make Nairs into Sudra and enjoy being proud of a Kshatriya/ Brahmin ( for sure you are one among them !)..

You can do whatever...but not by forgetting facts.

1) Are you saying TIPU was a fool who even don't know with whom / his caste he's going to fight with?....
Your reference - The 'Malabar manual'- is also written by an English man, who again may not be an expert in caste system in Kerala, not even knowledgeable as Tipu.... i Can give some other reference Niralamba ..Just start by this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samanthan_Nair


2) "Kshatriya is not the cast of SOLDIERS - it is the cast of kings..."

Cast of Kings(??) ...WOW!!! - You want everything in free eh?...
There's no creed/Cast in this world where you automatically born as KINGS...

If you look in North, the Kshatriya - system is very clear...All those Rajputs & Rajaputana Kings.... they never became KING by the help of other cast / creeds...They fought theirown..they were a formidable force..The RAJPUTS!!...
Even the Mughals respected them...Mughals even have Rajput Commanders...( Eventhough they have given their sisters to Mughal Kings..tht's another story!).

So there nothing is free outta here buddy...If you are a KING you are upto something.

3) "army need not consist of kshatriyas - it could consists of sudras too..." - That's true.... but not in Kerala at least..
Because,in Kerala the un-touchability was so high that, lower castes are not even allowed to pass near an uppercast Hindu ..then how can there be a lowercast (sudra) soldier fighting with uppercast in the same battle field.?..so tht's ruled out.

The 'Maamaankam' where chavers fought each other and died just for the fun....
Can you please tell me couple of names from any of so called 'Kshatriya" for that matter...

Never....Only Nairs fought here...
All the Kalari gurukkal was Nairs....( specifically 'KURUPPU')
When Tipu try to invade Travancore who fought against them?...

@Niralamban... please read history of 'Nedumkotta war', It will be a good learning experience for you - where the fiery Tipu has been defeated by a couple of NAIR soldiers under Kalari gurukkal 'Sri Vaikom Padmanabha Pillai' ....Even, the 'SWORD of TIPU SULTAN'- has been retained by NAIR army and TIPU was seriously injured and retreated.
(later Travancore King given that SWORD to Arcot Nawab.From Arcot Nawab English took it to London Museum..and last year Vijay Mallya got it back..:-))

Ofcourse, you will not find these things in text books..because they want to hide few things out there.. and that's where exactly the problem lies.


4) Reg: "upanayanam and a poonool....for Varma" - It's just a new phenomenon...Whoever is doing this..they are trying to create another identity by copying Brahmin styles...

I am not against any Varmas...But if somebody want to keep a separate individuality by terming others into something....that's what worries me...
VARMAs are just like 'MENON', or 'PANICKER' or 'PILLAI',that's it.


Simply, in INDIA, KSHATRIYA = Men who fought for their land, MEN, who seriously took part in governance and administration.
To make you simple....'VARMA' = someone who born into a Kovilakam for Nair parents.
You cannot forget your forefathers just to keep a separate identity buddy...


So forget about terming Nairs into sudras...history or facts won't support you..

Last but not least:- The treasure now found in Sri Padmanabha Temple....everyone needs to thank NAIR soldiers, especially Vaikom Padmanabha Pillai for defeating TIPU.
If TIPU would have won,the first thing he would do was to loot this and destroy our beloved Padmanabha Swami Temple!!...

So,Don't need to hail Nairs... but atleast don't put them into garbage please!...

 
At 5:45 PM, Blogger Niralamban said...

@പാച്ചു

Maybe you are surprised to hear that i am a Nair myself...(You have assumed that i am a brahmin or kshatriya)...
It is my father and grandfather who told me that Nairs are Sudras...
And as one of my friends(Also a nair) told me that Nairs are Kshatriyas, I searched and found out that he was wrong...

I will use the numbering you used while answering...

1)yes, i am saying that tippu need not have the knowledge of caste system to fight...
But william logan on the other hand was a person who actually studied about society...
A man who studies society should be the reference in case of caste systems, not some king who fought with that society...

2)Did i say all kshatriyas are kings?? No i didnt...
You are just posting some irrelevant stories of bravery...

3)Irrelevant stories again... The cast is not determined based on the battles fought...

4)This proves that you doesn't know about castes outside Kerala... Every brahmins kshatriyas and vaishyas wear poonool and they are dwija's... For example Mahatma Gandhi was vaishya and wore a poonool...
And nairs were an untouchable caste...
So i am not the one forgetting the forefathers, since i am not varma and all...
You are trying to bend castes for your mental amusement - to feel that you are a higher caste than you actually are...

Last but not the least: your theories on caste system is based on only one theory... nairs fight very bravely so they are kshatriyas...
This theory is nothing but a product of ignorance and inferiority complex...

What I am trying to do is tell others is that pretending to be kshatriya is ridiculous...

 
At 1:36 AM, Blogger പാച്ചു said...

@Niralamban

:) In history No other caste has crucified Nairs as Nairs itself did...So i'm not surprised to hear that you are a Nair...

My grandfathers also told me the same ....Nairs are 'Sudras'..

I never asked anyone..I researched my own...i kept reading Kerala History...and when put things in correct places i got to know that there was a determined effort to undermine Nairs and their contributions to the Society.

But, you know that Brahmins have no problem of having official relation ( SAMBANDHAM)with Nairs...

So where is this untouchability comes?

But they never promoted the Nairs..
It's described in this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samanthan_Nair

I don't care about dwija's and their poonools...after what the heck it's ...

What my point is ..In Kerala there were no clear chathur varna system present (except Brahmins).
So in place of Kshatriya the void has been filled by none other than NAIRS itself...it's a fact...Some Brahmins didn't like to accept it...But, that's none of our job.

And what u say the 'irrelevant stories' - are not at all irrelevant...Those incidents determined the exact fate of this land called Kerala...

You will not become a fool merely because few termed you as a fool ..did you?

Just like that, NAIR's won't become Sudras / untouchables merely because somebody told you so .or any one else for that matter....

Nairs history itself is confusing and clumsy...
Few ppl says Nairs are Nagas, few says Cheras...but modern DNA - analysis suggests pure NAIR blood has some Mediterranean connection....

Whatever it's, i should say Brahmins cleverly raised Nairs for their use...Few Nairs become fighters, few did same jobs as 'Sudras'did ....

So don't be fooled..if someone says you are av'Sudra'..

then Stand up and speak loudly....
"I have fought for this land against the enemies , i have ruled... governed , i have maintained law and order of this land for centuries...what else do you need my friend?"...

You should ask rather accepting their argument...

Hope you will do that in future my brother...b/b i'm finishing this discussion... :)

 
At 7:33 AM, Blogger binnykusa said...

while being aware of your background,one should also get out this casteist mentality as the future of caste inindia is doomed in the long run.

 
At 2:22 AM, Blogger Niralamban said...

@പാച്ചു
Well, you cannot end this discussion - you can only retire...
If you feel like retiring, you may do it...

I am continuing the discussion with anybody who is reading this and want to reply...

You admit that your theories are based on your on amateur research... (Assuming your research didn't result in you writing a PhD paper.)
I have to say that your research was shallow because you doesn't even know what dwija's are and don't care about it...
The caste system in hinduism is based on manusmrithi basically... Read that first... I have a printed malayalam copy at home... I think you could find an online version easily...
And for knowing about caste system in kerala, "Jaathivyavasthayum Kerala Charitravum" by P.K. Balakrishnan is a good and readable book.

About "sambandham"...
Sambandham was not like today's marriages. Still let's call the man and woman in sambandham as husband and wife for convenience.
In sambandham women stay at their home. Husband comes to the house and have intercourse with the wife and goes.
If the husband is Brahmin -
i)he does not even eat from wife's house.
ii)his children are not allowed to touch their father (untouchability).
iii)after having intercourse with the wife, husband have to do the corrective bathing since he have touched a shudra woman.
In short, sambandham is not a discrepancy regarding untouchability, but it shows the depth of untouchability.
And of course - nairs were untouchable.

So Nairs does not become kshatriyas/touchables if somebody says so.

In kerala the chathurvarnya system was present there except for vyshyas...
I will list examples for the castes in kerala.
a)Brahmin - namboodiri (few in population)
b)Kshatriya - varma (very very few in population)
c)Vyshya - absent
d)Shudra - nair (considerable strength in population)
e)panchama - pulaya,eezhava,etc (majority in population)
(note: panchama were considered the caste below shudras. Panchamas were present outside kerala also - it is not an exclusive kerala thing)

Since brahmins and kshatriya were very less in number, they had to let shudras(nairs) have a greater influence on the society, administration and culture, in order to keep the things going... This cause confusions to some people since shudras in other parts of india did not enjoy this status. (There, brahmins kshatriyas and vyshyas were considerable part of population, and so they did not need shudras in high places.)

I said those stories were irrelevant regarding the topic, not that they were completely irrelevant in all circumstances...
The caste is not determined based on the cultural impacts made... So "things they did for the country" is irrelevant regarding the topic.

So, stop fooling yourself by believing nairs are khatriyas.

And what is there for me to say that "i have fought for the land"??
I haven't fought for my land I am pretty sure. And you too haven't if you are not in the military.
അപ്പന്‍ ആനപ്പുറത്ത് കേറിയാല്‍ മോന് തഴമ്പ് ഉണ്ടാവില്ല. പണ്ട് നായന്മാര്‍ കുറേ യുദ്ധം ചെയ്തതിനു ഇന്ന് നായന്മാര്‍ അഭിമാനിക്കുന്നത് ദയനീയമാണ്.
ജാതിയില്‍ അഭിമാനിക്കുന്നവര്‍ ഇന്നത്തെ കാലത്തും ഉണ്ടല്ലോ. കഷ്ടം...

You should read more rather than amusing yourself with self formulated theories rooted on inferiority complex.
There is nothing wrong in accepting the fact that nairs are shudras. Shudras are not lower than Brahmins as human beings.
So please stop being proud of caste. There is nothing in it to be pround about castes(Actually we should be ashamed of caste system).

 
At 2:23 AM, Blogger Niralamban said...

Let me summarise my arguments into points in case somebody wants to reply...
And if you do, please post you replies for ALL argument points.

1) Your original research cannot be considered as a valid reference. (So is wiki)
2) There was untouchability in sambandham.
3) Chathurvarna system was present in kerala.
4) Caste is not determined based on cultural impact.
5) Please don't be proud of your caste.

(note: namboodiris used to have intercourse even with pulaya and paraya women, who had to stay about 70 feet apart from him at daylight. After touching a lower caste , the man took the corrective bath, just like always. - for this i cannot provide a reference so don't consider this part of argument. The reason that they went for other caste women is that only the elder son was allowed to marrry brahmin women. He could marry more than one brahmin woman and also have sambandhams.)

 
At 2:34 AM, Blogger പാച്ചു said...

ദാണ്ടെ കെടക്കുന്നു....പിന്നേം ഒന്നേല്‍ വന്നു നില്‍ക്കുന്നു...
ഞാന്‍ നിര്‍ത്തിയതാണ്‌...
പക്ഷെ മണ്ടത്തരങ്ങള്‍ കേട്ടു കൊണ്ടെങ്ങനെ വെറുതെയിരിയ്ക്കും.

അതു കൊണ്ടിനി പച്ച മലയാളത്തില്‍ ഒന്നു പറഞ്ഞു നോക്കാം എന്നു കരുതി...

എണ്റ്റെ റിസര്‍ച്ചില്‍ Phd കിട്ടിയോ ഇല്ലയോ എന്നതൊന്നും ആലോചിചു ചുമ്മാ തല പുണ്ണാക്കല്ലേ മാഷേ...
പിന്നെ പരിഹാസമല്ലേ, വായിച്ചു രസിക്കാന്‍ അതെങ്കിലും ഇല്ലേല്‍ പിന്നെ താങ്കളുടെ PhD പേപ്പറില്‍ പ്രത്യെകിച്ചു വല്ലോം ഉണ്ടോ?..സംശയമാണ്‌....

ശരി...ഇനി കാര്യത്തിലേയ്ക്ക്‌...
കാരണം മറ്റുള്ള ജാതിക്കാരെ പുലഭ്യം പറയലോ, നായന്‍മാരെ ക്ഷത്രിയനാക്കി പ്രതിഷ്ടിയ്ക്കലുമല്ല എണ്റ്റെ കര്‍മ്മ പദ്ധതി....
നമ്പൂതിരീസ്‌ ഇണ്റ്റെര്‍കോര്‍സു ചെയ്തതൊന്നുമല്ലിഷ്ടോ ഇവിടുത്തെ പ്രശ്നം... ...

1) ദ്വിജ- ഒന്നും ഇവിടെ കേട്ടു കേള്‍വി പോലും ഇല്ലാത്ത സംഗതികളാണ്‌...വടക്കുണ്ടാവും..ഗാന്ധിജി വൈശ്യന്‍ ആയിരുന്നു എന്നു ബ്രാഹ്മണരും, അല്ല ബ്രാഹ്മണന്‍ തന്നെയാണ്‌ എന്നു മറ്റു ചിലരും പറയുന്നു..കാരണം അദ്ദേഹത്തിനു ചരടുണ്ടായിരുന്നത്രേ!!....ആ ചര്‍ച്ച അവിടെ നടക്കട്ടെ..

അതെന്തായാലും ഗാന്ധിജിയെ ഗുരുവായൂറ്‍ അമ്പലത്തില്‍ കയറ്റില്ല എന്നു പറഞ്ഞ ചില ഇല്ലക്കാര്‍ ഇവിടെ ഉണ്ടായിരുന്നു...
ഗുരുവായൂറ്‍ സത്യാഗ്രഹ സമയത്ത്‌ ഗാന്ധിജി വന്നു നേരിട്ടു കണ്ട്‌ അഭ്യര്‍ഥിച്ചിട്ടു പോലും ഇല്ലക്കാര്‍ സമ്മതിച്ചില്ല....

ഇന്നു ആ ഇല്ലം എന്താണെന്നറിയാമോ....

ചെത്തു തൊഴിലാളി യൂണിയന്‍ ഓഫിസാണ്‌...(കവി വിഷ്‌ണു നാരായണന്‍ നമ്പൂതിരി പണ്ട്‌ മാത്രുഭൂമി ആഴ്ചപ്പതിപ്പിലെഴുതിയ ലേഖനമാണ്‌ ഓര്‍മ്മ വരുന്നത്‌... )

അതു കൊണ്ട്‌ നമ്പൂതിരിമാരു കാട്ടിയ വിക്രിയകള്‍ക്കൊന്നും മറുപടി പറയേണ്ട ബാധ്യത എനിക്കില്ല..

വെറുതെയല്ലല്ലോ വിവേകാനന്ദന്‍ കേരളം ഒരു ഭ്രാന്താലയം ആണെന്നു പറഞ്ഞത്‌...

അവര്‍ നായന്‍മാരെ ശൂദ്രന്‍മാരാക്കാന്‍ കൊറെ വിയര്‍ത്തതാ....

അവര്‍ നായന്‍മാരെ എങ്ങനെ കാണാന്‍ ആഗ്രഹിച്ചുവോ അതേ പോലെയാണു സുഹ്രുത്തേ താങ്കളുടെയും പോക്ക്‌..അതേ അടിമത്തം...തങ്ങളുടെ സംസ്കാരവും വേരുകളും വളരെ വ്യത്യസ്തമായിരുന്നുവെന്നും ഉദാത്തമായ ഒരു ഭൂതകാലം പണ്ടെന്നോ ഉണ്ടായിരുന്നു എന്നതും മറന്നു കൊണ്ട്‌ കണ്ടവണ്റ്റെയൊക്കെ എച്ചിലു തിന്നുന്ന അതേ അടിമത്തം....

ഇവിടെ ആരും ക്ഷത്രിയനാവാനോ, നായരു വല്ല്യ പുള്ളീയാണെന്നു കാണിയ്ക്കാനോ അല്ല...
ചരിത്രത്തില്‍ നിന്നു കിട്ടുന്ന bits & pieces when you put together ഇതാണു എനിയ്ക്കു കിട്ടുന്നത്‌ എന്നു കാണിയ്ക്കാനാണ്‌....

2)വര്‍മ്മ എന്നൊരു വര്‍ഗ്ഗം തന്നെ ഇല്ല എന്നു ഞാന്‍ പല തവണയായി പറയുന്നു...ഇന്നു വര്‍മ്മ എന്നു കരുതുകയും നായന്‍മാരേക്കാള്‍ കേമന്‍മാരണ്‌ എന്നഭിമാനിയ്ക്കുകയും ചെയ്യുന്ന എല്ലാവരും നായന്‍മാര്‍ തന്നെയാണ്‌...

കൂടുതല്‍ കേമന്‍മാരാവാന്‍ നമ്പൂതിരിമാര്‍ക്ക്‌ സേവ ചെയ്തതിണ്റ്റെയും വര്‍മ്മ എന്നൊക്കെയുള്ള സ്ഥാനപ്പേരുകള്‍ കിട്ടാന്‍ സാമന്തന്‍ നായന്‍മാര്‍ കാണിച്ച കോപ്രായങ്ങളുമൊക്കെ ചരിത്രത്തിണ്റ്റെ ഭാഗമാണ്‌...
അതിനു ബാലകിഷ്നണ്റ്റെം ശശിയുടെയുമൊന്നും പുത്തകം വായിയ്ക്കേണ്ട ഗതികേടെനിയ്ക്കില്ല മാഷെ.

പിന്നെ സ്വന്തം ജാതിയില്‍ അഭിമായ്ക്കുക, സ്വന്തം ഭൂമിയെ ബഹുമാനിയ്ക്കുക, സ്വന്തം നാടിനെയും അതിണ്റ്റെ സംസ്കാരത്തെയും ബഹുമാനിയ്ക്കുക എന്നതൊക്കെ ഏതൊരു തന്തയ്ക്കു പിറന്നവണ്റ്റേയും കടമയാണ്‌....അല്ല "ജാതിയില്‍ അഭിമാനിക്കുന്നവര്‍ ഇന്നത്തെ കാലത്തും ഉണ്ടല്ലോ" എന്നൊക്കെ ചോദിച്ച്‌ അന്തം വിടേണ്ട കാര്യം ഒന്നുമില്ല....

സ്വന്തം നാടിനെയും നാട്ടാരെയും രക്ഷിയ്ക്കാന്‍ വേണമെങ്കില്‍ അവസരം വന്നാല്‍ പൊരുതും ഞാന്‍...
അതു ചിലപ്പോ സ്വന്തം കൂട്ടുകാറ്‍ക്കു വേണ്ടീട്ടാവാം, ജീവിതക്കളത്തിലാവാം....ഒരുപാടു പൊരുതിത്തന്നെയാണ്‌ ഇവിടെ വരെയെത്തിയത്‌...ഒരുത്തണ്റ്റേം ശുപാര്‍ശയോ ഗവര്‍ണ്‍മെണ്റ്റു തരുന്ന reservation കൊണ്ടുമല്ല!.

നമ്മളുടെയെല്ലാം മോശം.... മറ്റുള്ളവര്‍ എല്ലാം, എല്ലാം തികഞ്ഞവര്‍ എന്നൊക്കെ കരുതുന്നത്‌ അല്‍പം English വിദ്യാഭ്യാസം കിട്ടിയതിണ്റ്റെ കുഴപ്പമാണ്‌..

അല്ലെങ്കില്‍തന്നെ നായരാണെന്നു സ്വയം സമ്മതിയ്ക്കുന്ന താങ്കള്‍, സ്വന്തം സമയം മെനക്കെടുത്തി നായരു വെരും മക്കുണനാണെന്നു വരുത്താന്‍ ശ്രമിയ്ക്കുന്നത്‌ കാണുമ്പോ സത്യത്തില്‍ എനിയ്ക്കുള്ള വികാരം പുഛത്തേക്കാളുപരി സഹതാപമാണ്‌...

ആസനത്തില്‍ ആലു കിളിറ്‍ത്താല്‍ അതും വല്ല്യ സംഭവം- എന്നു കരുതിയാല്‍ എന്താ ചെയ്ക..കഷ്ടം....

 
At 8:28 PM, Blogger Niralamban said...

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At 10:57 PM, Blogger Niralamban said...

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At 11:18 PM, Blogger Niralamban said...

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At 11:21 PM, Blogger Niralamban said...

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At 11:24 PM, Blogger Niralamban said...

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At 11:25 PM, Blogger Niralamban said...

@പാച്ചു
എന്നാ പിന്നെ ഞാനും മലയാളത്തിലേക്ക് നീങ്ങാം...
മണ്ടത്തരങ്ങള്‍ കേട്ട് കൊണ്ട് വെറുതെ ഇരിക്കാന്‍ പറ്റില്ല എന്ന് പാച്ചു പറഞ്ഞത് കാര്യം... അതാണ് ഞാന്‍ ഈ ചര്‍ച്ച തുടങ്ങാന്‍ തന്നെ കാരണം... പക്ഷെ അത് കഴിഞ്ഞു പാച്ചു പറഞ്ഞതോ - മണ്ടത്തരങ്ങള്‍ മാത്രം...

ഞാന്‍ പറഞ്ഞ ചില കാര്യങ്ങള്‍ പാച്ചു ശ്രദ്ധിച്ചില്ല...

സംബന്ധത്തിലെ തൊട്ടു കൂടായ്മയെ പറ്റി ഞാന്‍ പറഞ്ഞു - പാച്ചുവിന് മറുപടി ഇല്ല.
(കുടുംബത്തിലെയോ നാട്ടിലേയോ പഴയ സംബന്ധം ഉണ്ടായിരുന്ന ആരുടെയെങ്കിലും അടുത്ത് ചോദിച്ചു നോക്ക് - സത്യാവസ്ഥ അറിയാം... എന്‍റെ അമ്മയുടെ നാട്ടില്‍ ഉണ്ടായിരുന്ന ഒരു സംബന്ധാതെ കുറിച്ച് എനിക്ക് നേരിട്ട് കിട്ടിയ വിവരമാണ് ഈ മക്കളെ തൊട്ടു കൂടായ്മ.)

പാച്ചു ദ്വിജന്മാരെ കുറിച്ച് കേള്‍ക്കത്തതിന്‍റെ കാരണം പാച്ചു വിവരമുള്ളവര്‍ പറയുന്നത് കേട്ടിട്ടില്ല എന്നുള്ളതുകൊണ്ടാണ്... കാരണം കേരളത്തിലുള്ള നമ്പൂരിമാരെല്ലാം ദ്വിജന്മാരാണ്... ഉപനയനം എന്നൊരു ചടങ്ങ് ഉണ്ട് നമ്പൂരിമാര്‍ക്കും വര്‍മമാര്‍ക്കും ഒക്കെ... ആ ചടങ്ങിലൂടെ അവര്‍ പുതിയ ജന്മം എടുക്കുന്നതായിട്ടാണ് സങ്കല്‍പം... അതാണ് ദ്വിജന്‍ എന്ന് വിളിക്കാന്‍ കാരണം... ഉപനയനത്തിന്‍റെ സമയത്താണ് പൂണൂല്‍ ഇടുന്നത്... ഉപനയനം കഴിഞ്ഞാല്‍ വേദ അധ്യയനം നടത്തുകയും വേണം... ഇത് ഇന്നത്തെ കാലത്ത് അത്ര strict അല്ലെങ്കിലും പണ്ട് ഇത് ചെയ്യാത്തവന്‍ ജാതിക്കു വെളിയിലാണ്... (ഇത് മൊത്തം ആണുങ്ങള്‍ക്ക് മാത്രമാണ്.) പാച്ചു ഇതിനെക്കുറിച്ചൊന്നും ഒരു അന്തവുമില്ലാതെ ജാതിയെ കുറിച്ച് എന്ത് കുന്തമാണ് ഗവേഷണം നടത്തിയത്??

ഗാന്ധിജി ബ്രാഹ്മണനാണ് എന്ന് പറയുന്നത് ശുദ്ധ മണ്ടത്തരമാണ്.(1) ഗാന്ധിയുടെ ആത്മകഥ വായിച്ചാല്‍ അറിയാവുന്നതെ ഉള്ളു അത്.
"The Gandhis belong to the Bania caste and seem to have been originally grocers."
ഇത് ഗാന്ധിയുടെ ആത്മകഥയിലെ ആദ്യത്തെ വാചകമാണ്.
http://www.ivu.org/history/gandhi/autobiography.pdf
http://www.oxfordadvancedlearnersdictionary.com/dictionary/grocer
Bania ഒരു വൈശ്യ ജാതി ആണെന്ന് ഇതില്‍ നിന്ന് തന്നെ മനസ്സിലാകുന്നില്ലെങ്കില്‍ ഒരു Britanica ലിങ്കും തരാം.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/51854/Bania

പാച്ചു ഇനിയെങ്കിലും "മറ്റു ചിലര്‍" പറയുന്ന ഇതുപോലുള്ള മണ്ടത്തരങ്ങള്‍ എഴുന്നള്ളിക്കരുത്...

"ചെത്തു തൊഴിലാളി യൂണിയന്‍ ഓഫീസിന്‍റെ" കഥ ഒന്ന് വിശദമാക്കിയാല്‍ കൊള്ളാം...
(വിഷ്ണുനാരായണന്‍ നമ്പൂരി എഴുതിയ ലേഖനം എനിക്ക് അങ്ങോടു ഓര്‍മ വരുന്നുമില്ല. അതില്‍ എന്താ പറഞ്ഞിരിക്കുന്നെ എന്നും കൂടി പറഞ്ഞാല്‍ നന്നായിരുന്നു...)

പിന്നെ നായന്മാര്‍ ശൂദ്രന്മാരാണ് എന്ന് പറയുന്നത് പാച്ചു എന്തിനാ അപമാനം ആയിട്ട് എടുക്കുന്നെ??
നായന്മാര്‍ ശൂദ്രന്മാരാണ് എന്ന് തീരുമാനിച്ചത് നമ്പൂരിമാര്‍ തന്നെയാണ്...
ഈ ജാതി വ്യവസ്ഥ ഉണ്ടാക്കിയത് തന്നെ ബ്രാഹ്മണന്മാര്‍ ആണ് എന്ന കാര്യത്തില്‍ പാച്ചുവിന് സംശയം ഉണ്ടാകാന്‍ വഴിയില്ലെന്ന് കരുതുന്നു... (ഇത് ഉണ്ടാക്കിയവര്‍ അവരെ എന്തായാലും തലപ്പത്ത് തന്നെയല്ലേ വയ്ക്കൂ...) ജാതിയുടെ കാര്യങ്ങള്‍ തീരുമാനിക്കുന്നതും എല്ലാ കാലത്തും അവര്‍ തന്നെ ആയിരുന്നു...
അപ്പൊ നമ്പൂരിമാര്‍ നായന്മാര്‍ ശൂദ്രന്മാരാണെന്ന് പറഞ്ഞാല്‍ അതായിരിക്കും കൂടുതല്‍ ആധികാരികം...
നമ്പൂരിമാര്‍ ശൂദ്രന്മാര്‍ ആക്കുന്നതിനു മുന്‍പ് നായന്മാര്‍ക്ക് ജാതിയെ ഇല്ലായിരുന്നു എന്ന് ചുരുക്കം...

അതുകൊണ്ട് നമ്പൂരിമാര്‍ നായന്മാരെ ശൂദ്രന്മാരക്കാന്‍ നോക്കുന്നു എന്ന് പറയുന്നതും മണ്ടത്തരം തന്നെ... (2)

 
At 11:32 PM, Blogger Niralamban said...

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At 11:33 PM, Blogger Niralamban said...

പണ്ട് ഏതോ നമ്പൂരിമാര്‍ പാച്ചുവിന്‍റെ അപ്പൂപ്പനെ എന്ത് വിളിച്ചു എന്നോര്‍ത്ത് പാച്ചുവിന് അഭിമാനമോ അപമാനമോ തോന്നേണ്ട ഒരു കാര്യവുമില്ല... പക്ഷെ ആ വിളിച്ചത് എന്തായിരുന്നുഎന്ന് നുണ പറഞ്ഞാല്‍ ഞാന്‍ ഇടപെടും...


നമ്പൂരിമാരുടെ സേവ കൂടിയ നായന്മാര്‍ ആണ് വര്‍മമാര്‍ എന്നുള്ളത് ശരിയായിരിക്കും... പക്ഷെ, ജാതി വ്യവസ്ഥ ഉണ്ടാക്കിയവര്‍ വിളിച്ച സാധനതിനാണ് ജാതി എന്ന് പറയുന്നത്... അവര്‍ മറ്റുള്ളവരെ ജാതിയില്‍ താഴ്ത്താനും ഉയര്‍ത്താനുമുള്ള അധികാരവും അവരില്‍ തന്നെ നിക്ഷേപിച്ചു... അവര്‍ പറയുന്നത് കേള്‍ക്കുന്ന നായന്മാരെ അവര്‍ പൂണൂല്‍ കൊടുത്തു ക്ഷത്രിയന്മാര്‍ ആക്കി കാണും...
അവരുടെ പുറകെ പോകാത്ത നായന്മാരുടെ മക്കള്‍ ഇപ്പൊ ക്ഷത്രിയത്വതിന്‍റെ പുറകെ പോകുന്നതിനെയാണ് എച്ചില് തിന്നുന്ന അടിമത്തം എന്ന് വിളിക്കേണ്ടത്...
ജാതിക്കു "ബ്രാഹ്മണന്മാര്‍ ഉണ്ടാക്കിയ ഒരു ജീര്‍ണിച്ച വ്യവസ്ഥ" എന്ന ചരിത്ര പ്രാധാന്യത്തില്‍ കൂടുതല്‍ ഒരു പ്രാധാന്യം കൊടുക്കുന്നത്‌ പഴയ അടിമത്ത മനോഭാവത്തിന്‍റെ അവശിഷ്ടം ആയിട്ടെ കാണാനൊക്കൂ.

അപ്പോള്‍ വര്‍മ എന്നൊരു വിഭാഗം ഇല്ലെന്നു പറയുന്നതും മണ്ടത്തരം തന്നെ... (3)

"ബാലകിഷ്നണ്റ്റെ പുത്തകത്തില്‍" ഉള്ളത് എന്തുവാന്നു വായിച്ചു നോക്കേണ്ട ആവശ്യം ഉള്ള ആളാണ് പാച്ചൂ, പാച്ചു - അത് പാച്ചു അറിയുന്നില്ലെങ്കിലും.

ജാതിയില്‍ അഭിമാനിക്കുന്നവര്‍ ഉണ്ടെന്നുള്ളതില്‍ എനിക്ക് ലജ്ജയുണ്ട്, ഒരു ഇന്ത്യന്‍ എന്ന നിലയില്‍...

പിന്നെ reservationte കാര്യം പറഞ്ഞാല്‍ ഇവിടെ നിക്കുല്ല... അത് തല്ക്കാലം പിന്നത്തേക്ക് മാറ്റി വക്കുന്നതാവും നല്ലത്...

ഇംഗ്ലീഷ് വിദ്യാഭ്യാസം കിട്ടിയപ്പോ പാച്ചുവിന് പാച്ചു മോശം ആണെന്ന് തോന്നിയോ?? എനിക്ക് ഏതായാലും ഒട്ടും തോന്നിയില്ല കേട്ടോ...

മറ്റുള്ളവര്‍ കേമന്മാരാണെന്ന് ഞാന്‍ പറഞ്ഞിട്ടേ ഇല്ല... ക്ഷത്രിയന്മാര്‍ ശൂദ്രന്മാരെക്കാള്‍ കേമന്മാരാണെന്ന് വാശി പിടിക്കുന്നത്‌ പാച്ചു തന്നെയല്ലേ??

നായര്‍ ശൂദ്രനാണ് എന്നല്ലാതെ നായന്മാര്‍ മോശക്കാര്‍ ആണ് എന്ന് ഞാന്‍ പറഞ്ഞിട്ടേ ഇല്ല... അതായതു ശൂദ്രന്മാര്‍ മോശക്കാര്‍ ആണ് എന്ന് പറഞ്ഞാല്‍ ഞാന്‍ അത് സമ്മതിച്ചു തരില്ലെന്ന് ചുരുക്കം...

അപ്പോള്‍ നായന്മാരെ മക്കുണന്‍ ആക്കാന്‍ ഞാന്‍ ശ്രമിക്കുന്നു എന്ന വാദവും മണ്ടത്തരം തന്നെ... (4)

പിന്നെ ആസനത്തില്‍ ആല് കിളിര്‍ക്കുന്ന ഉപമ ഇവിടെ അത്ര പോര കേട്ടോ പാച്ചു... ഇതിനെ അത്യന്തം ദയനീയം എന്നെ എനിക്ക് വിശേഷിപ്പിക്കാന്‍ കഴിയൂ...

പാച്ചുവിന്‍റെ ചില മണ്ടത്തരങ്ങളെ ഞാന്‍ മുകളില്‍ വിശദീകരിച്ചിട്ടുണ്ട്.
ഇവിടെ അത് ഒന്നുകൂടി അക്കമിട്ടു നിരത്താം...

1. ഗാന്ധിജി ബ്രാഹ്മണനാണ് എന്ന് പറഞ്ഞത്
2. നമ്പൂരിമാര്‍ നായന്മാരെ ശൂദ്രന്മാരക്കാന്‍ നോക്കുന്നു എന്ന് പറഞ്ഞത്
3. വര്‍മ എന്നൊരു വിഭാഗം ഇല്ലെന്നു പറഞ്ഞത്
4. നായന്മാരെ മക്കുണന്‍ ആക്കാന്‍ ഞാന്‍ ശ്രമിക്കുന്നു എന്ന വാദം

 
At 11:36 PM, Blogger Niralamban said...

i had to do a lot of work to get the above two comments in the correct order at last...

so paachu do reply...

 
At 9:07 AM, Blogger binnykusa said...

Dear Niralamban

Request you to keep your posts in English.This would enable the vast majority of Malayalam Challenged people too to follow the discussions.

 
At 8:47 PM, Blogger Niralamban said...

@I will try to do that in future... pachu and i just felt malayalam more comfortable...

 
At 2:05 PM, Blogger Niralamban said...

@binnykusa
i will translate my posts above to english...
some terms used:-
pachu - പാച്ചു
namboodiri - kerala brahmin

bnow the post's translation

What pachu said about not being able to simply listen to nonsense is alright... But after that, everything pachu said was nonsense...

pachu didn't listen to some things i said...

i told about the untouchability in sambandham - no response from pachu.
(you can verify this by inquiring about about an old sambandham in your family or neighborhood. i know of untouchability towards one's own children personally.)

The reason why pachu didn't hear about dwija's is that pachu didn't listen to people who have proper knowledge. there is a ritual called "upanayanam" for namboodiris and varmas. they are considered to take new birth through this. that's the reason they are called "dwijas". they wear "poonol" at the time of upanayanam. and they learn Vedas after this. nowadays it is not that strict but at that time those who do not do this are outcasted. (all there are for men only.) what the hell was pachu researching about casts if you don't have a clue about this??

the saying that Gandhi is Brahmin is utter nonsense(1). you can know this by reading Gandhi's autobiography.
"The Gandhis belong to the Bania caste and seem to have been originally grocers."
this is the first sentence in the autobiography.
http://www.ivu.org/history/gandhi/autobiography.pdf
http://www.oxfordadvancedlearnersdictionary.com/dictionary/grocer
if you still don't understand that "Bania" is vaishya cast, here is a Britannica link.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/51854/Bania

pachu, please don't bring up nonsense that "somebody said" like this again.

and please explain the story of "chethu thozhilali union".(i don't remember the article by vishnu narayanan Namboodiri.)

after all, why is pachu taking the fact that "nairs are shudras" as an insult??
it was sure that namboodiris decided that "nairs are shudras".
i hope pachu do not have doubt in that the cast system itself was formed by Brahmins. (whoever made it would place themselves on top.) so they were the authority about castes all along. so if they say "nairs are shudras" that should be more authentic.
in short nairs didn't have any cast till brahmin's made them shoodras.

so the claim that namboodiris are trying to turn nairs into shudras is another nonsense (2).

 
At 2:31 PM, Blogger Niralamban said...

pachu need not be proud or ashamed of what some brahmins called your grandfathers. but if you lie about what they called them, i would interfere.

the claim that the varmas are the nairs who sticked close to brahmins could be true. but the fact is that the cast is what the people who made caste system called others. they kept the power to upgrade or degrade other people in caste to themselves. so they may have turned the nairs who listened to them into varmas by giving them "poonool". the children of those who weren't the namboodiri's pet now going after kshatriya hood is what should be called slavery. giving cast any more significance than the historic importance of "of a degenerate system made by brahmins" is the remains of the old slave mentality.

so the argument that there is no such casts as varma's is also nonsense (3).

pachu is a person who should look into balakrishnan's book, even though you don't admit that.

if we start on "reservation" it won't stop here. so let's leave it for now.

did pachu feel that you are a lesser person when you got english education?? i never felt so.

i never said other are better. pachu is the one who insisted that shudras are lesser people.

i said nairs are shudras and not that nairs are lesser people. that is i won't agree if you say that shudras are lesser.

so the argument that i am trying to turn nairs into "makkuna" is also nonsense. (4)

and the metaphor of "banyan tree in the ass" doesn't seem to fit in here. i would say the metaphor is pathetic.

above i have explained the nonsense pachu said.
i will list out them below.

1. said that gandhi was brahmin
2. said namboodiris try to turn nairs shudra
3. sid that there is no cast as varma
4. said that i am trying to turn nairs into "makkuna"

 
At 7:36 PM, Blogger dubai said...

Mr. Niralamban,
I read the points you raised to prove that Nairs are Sudras. If you are a Nair, which you claim, but i seriously doubt, I would like to remind you that the Mr. Mannath Padmanabhan had once famously commented on the issue, saying "I am not a sudra, am a Nair".

You would not like to believe his words also, although he did so much for the community including you and me.

But i have a question for you.
You have placed your entire argument that a Nair is a sudra based on the Namboodiri custom of untouchability, whether it is the corrective bath after sex with Nair women or towards the nair of the house (there is no proof for such a custom, all children born out of such wedlocks are considered Nairs only, so they dont need to practise untouchability in their mothers house. I dont know from where you get such ideas!!!)

My question is:-
A Namboodiri won't touch a tamil brahmin too including iyers and also brahmins from other parts of india. Now, What would you make out of that? Are they not Brahmins? or are they Sudra class too?

So don't read too much into the law of untouchability practised by kerala brahmins at that time and classify people accordingly.

It was not an open and approved relationship, if a namboodirini had sex with, say, a pulaya woman. But with Nair women, Sambandham, was an affair/ritual recognised by the society at that time.

Some sects of kshatriyas, including the sects like nagavanshi from where Nairs claim decent, dont wear poonool. So poonool is not really a sign to identify a kshatriya.
Also you might have heard the story of some sects of kshatriyas throwing away the thread to escape the wrath of Parashurama.

Some reference:- Dr.E.J.Thomas- Nairs were considred as dwijas without holy string (poonool). (Keralathinte samoohyaghatanayum, roopantharavum).

Mr. Niralamban, you are now really a niralamban, you need to find some support, all the books say otherwise.

The sudras in the rest of India were never a martial class, since warfare was the profession of the Ksyathriyas. According to this interpretation, Nairs would seem to be more like Kshatriyas since they were a martial class as well. Similar to Kshatriyas, they were second to the Brahmins

As Mr. Pachu pointed out, there is no caste called "Varma" in kerala or anywhere else.
All royal families in kerala are formed from Nair caste and they had such Sirnames too along with sirnames like Thampi, Achan etc.
People with such sirnames marry nairs and i have relatives from such royal families. Our sirname is just "Nair".

- The_King

 
At 1:13 AM, Blogger Niralamban said...

@dubai
since you are talking sense, i am in a real argument now...

Now getting into argument
First thing you said was i may not be a nair (0)- for that i can provide copy of my SSLC certificate and link to my facebook account if you give me your mail id...

You also said that i should appreciate what Mr. Mannath Padmanabhan did for the community - well i generally don't appreciate anybody doing service only to peole belonging to a certain religion or caste...

Then you said my argument was entirely based on the untouchability (1) - well it is not... i told pachu his forefathers were untouchable to give a blow to his pride... but i never said "since nairs were untouchable, they should have been shudras"... and i never said the children practiced untouchability... i said the fathers never touched their children... and i got ideas from people who were involved in sambandham...

your question was whether the iyers are shudra's too... the answer is no...

as i said before my argument was based on untouchability - untouchability was for pachu alone...

sambandham was legal and the affair with pulaya women was unapproved - you are correct regarding this but i never said anything against this point before...

i repeat - i didn't classify any one based on untouchability's level...

 
At 1:14 AM, Blogger Niralamban said...

All sects of kshatriya's should have ponool (2) - it is part of "varnashrama dharma". so the "claim" made by some nairs is something out of an inferiority complex, when actually there is nothing inferior or superior about being in any caste...

I have heard of the story of kshatriya's throwing away poonool - but let me ask - if ponool is of no worth, then why would it's abandonment be in the story??
the answer is throwing away ponool is like throwing away kshatriyathwa...
let me tell the part of story you left out or didn't notice...
"since parashurama killed all kshatriya's and the rest threw away poonools, there was no kshatriya men left on earth...
since there is no one to rule, there was even heavenly intereference and in the end some kshatriya women were married by brahmins and the children were kshatriyas"
(note:- religious rules of inter caste marrige: only a higher caste male can marry a lower caste female and not vice versa. the child will have the caste of mother.)


your reference "Dr.E.J.Thomas" didn't give any corresponding result on first search page of google...
and search of "Keralathinte samoohyaghatanayum, roopantharavum" gave nothing other than a link to "nairs.in". - a site made by just another bunch of nairs who gets satisfaction by believing they are kshatriyas... (3)
dwija means having two birth - what are the two birth's in nair's life according to dr.e.j.thomas??

the name niralamban is associated with a beautiful nostalgic memory of my school life - that cannot be described in words...
and since you say i got no support at all,(4) i am sure that you didn't see the part where i posted the argument "why nairs are shudras". instead you saw only the part where i was trying to work with pachu's pride...
here are my two main references

a) "malabar manual" page 92 implies nairs are shudras... the book is available on google books...
http://books.google.com/books?id=9mR2QXrVEJIC&q=nayar+sudra#v=snippet&q=nayar sudra

b) in the begining pages, "manusmrithi" describes the castes and the things they should do...
(manusmriti is to be considered way more authentic regarding religion than dr.e.j.thomas)
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/363055/Manu-smriti

so mr. dubai, have some real support and "all the books that says othewise" you have read seems to be only of dr.e.j.thomas.
one can never know what "all the books say"...

i can also supply additional links, but don't consider these as my references..
http://www.angelfire.com/art2/ezhuthachan/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nair

 
At 1:16 AM, Blogger Niralamban said...

and about the conclusion based on the martial arts...(5) i am copy pating from one of my previous posts...
castes in kerala with example.
a)Brahmin - namboodiri (few in population)
b)Kshatriya - varma (very very few in population)
c)Vyshya - absent
d)Shudra - nair (considerable strength in population)
Since brahmins and kshatriya were very less in number, they had to let shudras(nairs) have a greater influence on the society, administration and culture, in order to keep the things going... This cause confusions to some people since shudras in other parts of india did not enjoy this status. (There, brahmins kshatriyas and vyshyas were considerable part of population, and so they did not need shudras in high places.

that is the martial activities need not prove nairs are shudras...

you are quoting even pachu - he didn't even know what dwija's are. i will copy paste what he said "ദ്വിജ- ഒന്നും ഇവിടെ കേട്ടു കേള്‍വി പോലും ഇല്ലാത്ത സംഗതികളാണ്‌...വടക്കുണ്ടാവും..ഗാന്ധിജി വൈശ്യന്‍ ആയിരുന്നു എന്നു ബ്രാഹ്മണരും, അല്ല ബ്രാഹ്മണന്‍ തന്നെയാണ്‌ എന്നു മറ്റു ചിലരും പറയുന്നു..കാരണം അദ്ദേഹത്തിനു ചരടുണ്ടായിരുന്നത്രേ!!....ആ ചര്‍ച്ച അവിടെ നടക്കട്ടെ.. "
this can be translated to "dwija-are things which are not even heard around here. maybe there in north. some people say gandhi was vaishya and some say he was brahmin.. cause he had string... let that discussion go on there"

and you can't say there are no castes called varma's cause the name of the founder of travancore kingdom was marthandavarma. you can argue that varma is just another class in nair but arguing that there are no varma's is pathetic...
but the fact is that nairs were never part of royal family...
in kerala the system followed by everyone other than brahmins was marumakkathayam...
so that means the children of a female in royal family alone belong to royal family...
that's why your name is only nair - you get caste of your mother in an allowed intercaste marrige...
if a higher caste woman is wed by lower caste men, the children were out of for castes - panchama's...
that is no royal family who follows caste system will not wed their women to nair men...
i think the relatives you have in royal family are only of these kind - those which had no value then and have value now...


so let me summarize my argument and point out where you went wrong...
(0) in assuming i am not a nair - where i can prove otherwise...
(1) in not reading my actual arguments and thinking that my argument was based on untouchability.
(2) isaying that kshatriyas need not have poonool using a part of a story, which actually proves otherwise..
(3) in claiming nairs are dwijas and not saying wat are the two janma's
(4) in saying i had no support (reference) and you have read all the books...
(5) in classifying castes based only on superfluous information...

finally i repeat on what i consider as my references for the arguments
a) malabar manual
http://books.google.com/books?id=9mR2QXrVEJIC&q=nayar+sudra#v=snippet&q=nayar sudra

b) manusmrithi
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/363055/Manu-smriti

i believe i have replied to everything you said... if not mention what it is...
now bring it on, king of nothing..

 
At 11:54 PM, Blogger പാച്ചു said...

I can see a big gap in your knowledge about Kerala history in general and Nair history in particular...

Otherwise u should not have said about Mannath Padmanabhan like this - " generally don't appreciate anybody doing service only to people belonging to a certain religion or caste..."

That means you didn't even have a basic understanding of Nairs and one of their Great leaders in 21st century!!!...

He lived here, he died just few years ago... still you don't have any idea who he was.. ...and you are arguing about things happened centuries before????..Simply pathetic..

He's the only upper caste leader who fought and led big agitation for less privileged people...in numerous occasions...

Have you ever heard about 'Vaikom Sathyagraha'?...It's the agitation led to have temple entry for theeya and pulaya castes...
He organized so called 'pride Nairs' just for the cause of other under privileged castes like theeya and pulayas..

This is the same case happened with 'Guruvayoor sathyagraha" also...
Why should he do that..he never contested in any election.....but he did it....he did it with style..
This is quite unique in Indian history...Since, No upper caste Hindu ever led any agitation like this (also with out losing confidence of his own people).

The Oath taken in NSS meetings, there's a special clause in it ...it's like this " I will NOT entertain any act, which is against any other caste/religion sad or inappropriate for them."....This is also unique...that is why he won many hearts irrespective of the caste and religion...

The Manorama family who are Christians, still have very good relations with NSS from the time of Mannam, and still contributes one gold coin every year to NSS.
This is the tradition they are following from the days of Varghese Mappilla...Still in Changanasserry when ever any occasion in memoir Mannam the Christian and Muslim religious leaders are inevitable part.

Well, it may not be interesting to you..but the leadership quality and Organizing power he showed at the time of 'Vimochana Samaram" in 1959, which eventually led to the dismissal of EMS - Government is still history.... i think you need some education on the role and aim hat part...

Secondly, you talk about Smriti and says - All caste system is based on Smriti..That's not true...i'm copying what smriti actually is

Vedic literature is primarily of two types, sruti and smriti. The Veda is called sruti and is the highest authority. Other texts are called smritis, and they derive authority from the sruti. Sruti is apaurusheya (eternal and authoress), and smritis are the words of seers.

Further, smriti seeks to present with clarity the rights and wrongs of a situation along with dos and don'ts. While describing the actions of most righteous (as in case of Itihasa Puranas) it demonstrates how one can realize ideals in life. It also clarifies the dilemmas and confusions man faces in various life situations and explains what its stand is and why.

So Smriti is written by a person, based on the time he lives in...it was supposed to be changed according to time..(അപ്രമാദിത്യമുള്ളതല്ല എന്നു ചുരുക്കം)
So, it means that it can be interpretable..just like now Terrorists are interpreting other religious books in a different way for their convinience..

Brahmins even put boiling lead into ears of lower caste who heard vedas / Sanskrit..now look at Sanskrit..it's dying because no common man is using it.
That's why i told Brahmins interpreted these Smrutis in a different ways and later fell in trouble...

The "Chethu thozhilaali Union" - story i put it to stress this point...look at their situation now..

 
At 12:04 AM, Blogger പാച്ചു said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 12:18 AM, Blogger പാച്ചു said...

Also, as per ur old pt...Kshatriya - varma (very very few in population!!!???)....
My question is why can't these Marthanda varmas and other Varmaz need a personnal Nair Army!! ...
Even if very very few in population, why can't they form a 'Varma Army' - to protect their own King....

I already told these Varmas are Nairs only, one of the Travancore kings original name was Raman Nair itself.
You admit that only Nairs followed the marumakkathayam..if you look at these Marthanda varmas and Saamoothiris...they also followed 'marumakkathayam'.
So, that itself is a proof they are none other than NAIRS !!...

I'm not mentioning anything about 'Dwija' / earlier ignored it since i think it's completely out of context and irrelevant in this discussion...there's no historical evidence that apart from Brahmins noone in kerala actually practised 'ponool'...if someone is practicing it just to become different... ask them..neither i'm responsible to answer it nor it can be taken as a proof that a new caste is born here from nothing!!.

Basically, your arguments are based on the fact that Brahmins considered Nairs as untouchable...So Nairs are untouchable...
My point is based on the fact that looking at the role Nairs played in the Kerala History (and still it continues...)there must be something gone wrong some time in the past...i would even call it a 'CONSPIRACY'...

I think basically all your arguments are pathetic taking in account that you yourself agreed that ur arguments are built for - 'give a blow to pachu's pride'!!....

well....My pride will always be there buddy... and it's not going to diminish with someone's 3 bit arguments...so if your real aim to 'give a blow'- then you must not waste your time ...
I will not waste my time here for sure!! ..:-)

 
At 11:56 PM, Blogger Niralamban said...

Again pachu is reading wats not written only...

i never said mannath padmanabhan didn't do anything for society... wat i said was a reply to "dubai", thinking by "community" he meant nairs alone(1)... in case he meant the kerala society as a whole, i do appreciate it...
that answers a lot of parts of your post...

and what you said about smrithi and shruthi is right - veda's is the highest authority... but still smrithi's are second authority and have more authority than e.j thomas - thats wat i said (2)(i never said manusmrithi is the highest authority... to deny what i said you have to produce from veda the passages which contradicts what i said)

and about interpretations - interpret what is said in manusmrithi about castes in a different way - come and do it - then only speak about misinterpretation...

and i didn't see chethu thozhilali union story anywhere here...

why varma's need nair army?? - you even quoted the answer before... the answer is that they were few in number... an army needs NUMBER.

i said everyone other than brahmins followed marumakkathayam - it is not admitting only nairs followed marumakkathayam(3)...
(i do consider it as a possibility that varmas are converted nairs - but they are now varmas)

if you are saying that varmas didn't use to wear poonool, then you are shutting your eyes to history... and you are again conviniently ignoring dwija's though "dubai" tried to prove nairs are dwijas(!!)

you are saying castes cannot be born out of nothing - and i think there is a defenition problem here. what is caste?? - you define it...

what other than "people considered untouchable by brahmins" is untouchable??
define what is untouchable too...

i can agree to your argument that brahmins tried to suppress nairs by considering them as shudras. but since they made the caste system, caste should be what they say...

yeah i am so desperate to give a blow to your pride... but your pride is so senseless that it takes no inputs - i mean - people who were NOT TOUCHED by brahmins were NOT untouchable - in your opinion?? :O

again pachu is mostly replying to what i didn't say - i have numbered them...
and my next post may be after some time because my exams are coming up... thats all for this post...

 
At 12:00 AM, Blogger Niralamban said...

if pachu is posting again post your definition of
(1)caste and
(2)untouchability

otherwise this argument is not going to go anywhere...
and use references to increse your credibility...

 
At 11:36 PM, Blogger My mexican is better than yours said...

Niralamnban is a jealous lowcast person. Anyone can make that out. There are a lot of people like these. They are good for nothing. And if there are good peopleinstead of appreciating the Nayars for fighting for the kingdom and sacrificing their lives to protect the land. for bringing up a world class martial art form "Kalaripayattu" . instead of all these. These people only would be interested in defaming the Nayars and gaining some kind of downtrodden happiness with lies and treachery.

Niralamban. your grandmother mi8ght have roamed topless behing 50 feet from Nayars. but this is no way to take revenge.

 
At 3:14 PM, Blogger Niralamban said...

@the mexican guy...
i already told that i can send a photo pf my SSLC certificate just in case you want proof that i am a nair - if you give mail id...
and the second thing is that not only the lower castes, but nair women also roamed topless here... and lower caste never needed to keep the distance from nairs...
You don't have a clue about castes and you have nothing relevant to say so the only thing you can do is pick on my caste... i dont mind if i were a lower caste - in fact i would love it for i would get reservations - but the fact is i am a nair and i can prove it...

 
At 8:01 PM, Blogger AARKAY said...

cut the crap my Nair friend's. let's do something great as nair's to uplift our society and land.

 
At 12:22 PM, Blogger Niralamban said...

I prefer doing it as humans...

 
At 5:45 PM, Blogger My mexican is better than yours said...

Niralamban... send us your certificates!!!! let me see.

You've been defaming a warrior class considering some stupid statement.

Kshatriya - warriors. Kalaripayattu is such a powerful form of martial art.

 
At 3:08 PM, Blogger VR said...

Nairs in pre-modern Kerala constituted what can be aptly called as WARRIOR ARISTOCRACY whose caste assemblies ("tarakoottam" - village assembly) wielded actual supreme political power. Rajas, Naduvazis, Desavazis and Jenmis were reliant on good will of elders or "karanavars" of "tara" organization for lack of support of "tara" organization meat loss of troops and income. It's support could make and unmake potentates and held a check on despotic power of rulers ("Malabar Manual." Logan, William. 1887)

Kindly note that "Kshatriya" as envisaged in sacred works is warrior aristocrat - Just as tax payer is Vaishya and worker is Sudra.

"Varmas" of Kerala are of Nair origin. ("Matrilineal Kinship", David Schneider and Kathleen Gough, 1961) Overgrown Nair princes became "Varma" by undergoing Brahmin rituals so as to connect themselves with Puranic-Vedic tradtions. "Nair ripens into a Raja" - is an old North Malabar proverb which indeed is true.

And finally some words about Brahmins of South - they did not classify people according to classical textual prescription but according to their own whim and fancy. Hence what Nambudiris thought and might be thinking is irrelevant as they did not do justice even to their own sacred books.

Between ourselves, I will say anyone who fight for his country is a Kshatriya. And anyone who have fore-fathers who did valiant deeds have full rights to be proud of that - be he a Nair or someone else.

 
At 5:31 PM, Blogger Niralamban said...

@mexican guy...
post your e-mail here...
i will send a photo of my sslc certificate...

@VR
Seems like you have mised the part from william logan's book i posted which called nairs shudras...

 
At 1:42 PM, Blogger VR said...

@Niralamban

William Logan simply wrote about caste condition and caste notions prevalent in Kerala in late 19th century. Nowhere did he write that -"Nairs of Malabar, in my view, are a race of serviles and hence must be called and viewed as Sudras and nothing else!"

On contrary he did note that Brahmins (Nambudiris) were unwilling to consider even warrior aristocracy (Nairs) as Kshatriya, though in accordance to text, ruling class is labelled as Kshatriya.

 
At 2:02 PM, Blogger Niralamban said...

VR

in accordance to texts regarding to castes, like manusmithi, kshatriya's are not those who have power...

They have to practice varnashrama dharma's and that include upanayanam...

There is a wide misconception that kshatriyas are those who have power, which you also seem to have...

William logan uses the word nair synonymous with shudra, and now you are saying that he did not mean it, and he meant what you want it to mean...

 
At 3:25 PM, Blogger sabu said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 3:40 PM, Blogger sabu said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 3:44 PM, Blogger sabu said...

Nair (Malayalam: നായര്‍, also known as Nayar and Malayala Kshatriya) mostly found in Kerala.

 
At 3:39 PM, Blogger VR said...

@niralamban

Kindly refer Malabar Manual, Vol 1, Page 116

"They had no sufficient body of "protectors" of their own race to fall back upon, so they had perforce to acknowledge as "protectors", the aboriginal ruling race, - the Nayars- whom they designated as "Sudras" but in reality treated as Kshatriyas."

"...Aryans who introduced political system of caste in Malabar were unwilling to raise even the aboriginal ruling class to the dignity of pure Kshatriya caste of Aryans.

"And yet State organization required that there should be a protector or Kshatriya caste, so they solved the difficulty by inventing a term - Nayan, plural Nayar (Sanskrit: leader, soldier)-and by applying it to the caste whom they constituted protectors and yet treated as "Sudras"(servile caste)."

 
At 3:46 PM, Blogger VR said...

@Niralamban

You have wrote that a true Kshatriya must practise "Varnashrama Dharma" which includes "Upanayana" also.

Texts say that Kshatriyas and Vaishyas are eligible for Upanayana, but in North India, which have a Chaturvarna way of social classification, neither Rajputs nor Banias practise Upanayana in many parts nor do they have a history of learning Sanskrit works, yet are classified as Kshatriya and Vaishya.

Now comes issue in South. As administrator and fighter, a Nair or Maratha or Reddy is in no way inferior to Rajput. As a merchant, a Chetti or Balija is in no way inferior to a Bania. But when they learnt that their corresponding castes in North is given "honour" as Vaishya and Kshatriya by North Indian Brahmins and they themselves being viewed as Sudras back home by local Brahmins, they became outraged.

 
At 3:50 PM, Blogger alan.idea said...

Jeez, this started as a discussion on history. I came here in search of some knowledge on origins of Nair caste.
Many comments talk bullshit like
"There is a hidden agenda of X, Y and Z to destroy our religion/caste or whatever". Guys like these sound like retards.

Now, lets check out some popular studies.
1. Nairs came from Bunts who claim to their origins from Nagavanshi's. Nagas were great rulers of various kingdoms all over India. Some say they were natives or came here before Indo-Aryans. But in the post-Vedic period, around the time of compilation of Puranas, they were integrated to the Aryan System and granted Kshatriyahood.

2. Or they are Sudras or a mixed group considered as Sudras and came with Brahmins. Either way, some of them were elevated to Kshatriyahood - starting with Kolathiri Raja Udayavarman. Such Varma, Thamburan, Thambaan etc. were sometimes called Samantha Kshatriya or Samantha Nairs. While the other Nair communities performed the function of Kshatriyas both as soldiers and rulers because a harmonious society needs some protectors. So the Brahmins may have gradually accepted them in those positions.

3.In the assumption that Nairs are Sudras, Samantha's were Sudras made Kshatriyas. In the Vedic period, caste represented one's role in society and so interchangeable. According to that, Nairs deserve Kshatriya position. But in the ritualistic sense, they are not Kshatriyas. There is also a possibility that Nagavanshi's never followed all ritualistic activities of Aryans, though they were accepted to Vedic religion(I'm not sure, someone should check with other sects claiming to be descendents of Nagas).

But if you want to fit Nairs to any level, then it's not Sudra. It doesnt really matter whether they are descendents of Kshatriya's or not, whether they did Upanayana or not, since they performed the Kshatriya functions in Kerala society, they can be considered Kshatriyas.

 
At 9:08 PM, Blogger kodakkatmenon said...

Hi,
I had been looking for answers regarding the same issue.
First of all, Nairs of Kerala can never be regarded as sudras.They are the people who worship serpent gods or snake gods and descendants of Nagas, who belong to kshathriya category.
In every Nair Tharavad, especially in Kiriyath nairs we can find serpent gods, Machill Bagavathi and Valu(Sword). They do the poojas as per the brahmin custom /rituals.How can nairs be considered as sudras?
You may please go through the history of ancient temples of Kerala,which had been here since BC., especially Thirunavaya, Thirumanthamkunnu, Guruvayoor , Kodungaloor and Chittur Kavu.You Can find that the nairs were taking care of the adminisration and were having the rights .

Namboothiris treated all castes below them as sudras.Even Nairs considered so regarding the lower castes or to whom, where in their land was given for agriculture purpose or paattom.

So, Before uttering foolishness, please go through all the history.
Nair women had high respect in society, and the aristrocratic nair families are still known by their house names rather than caste name.
One more thing to note is that ,in kerala vaishyas were there...they were the guptans, mudaliars , moothan etc.especially found in valluvanad and the present palakkad.

 
At 9:20 PM, Blogger kodakkatmenon said...

Another point worth considering is , there is a temple of serpent gods in trichur, pambumekkattu mana. There, entry is restricted to brahmins and nairs(others can visit only on vrischikam 1).You may go , visit and check yourself.if nairs were sudras why are they been permitted in that ancient temple even before 2000 years?

 
At 4:04 PM, Blogger shan said...

During last decade of 19th century ie during 1890's a man called C.V.raman pillai who was living kerala wrote a novel,a historical romance.it was one of the first novels in Malayalam.the novels name is marthanda varma-the famous king of travancore who enlarged travancore to a bigger country and made it strong with new revenue administration .he also weakened the feudal system there which was slowly emerged and formed from 14th century.C.V.Raman was very high caste spirited person (as was like many at the time.even now its said that nairs are the most caste spirited persons in kerala ).so he named all the important characters of the novel with surname pillai, some of the characters were real historical figures .they too were christian-ed with pillai surname.this novel was very popular and was taught in schools and colleges(even now) .many thought foolishly that it was the real history.but actually many characters were his creation which he thought needed for a love story.he knew many folk songs and from that he formed his own story.some parts of these songs are including at the start of each chapter.

Many after reading this novel tried to read the history accordingly ,doing so they corrupted the real history.as all know kerala people is very caste spirited specially the upper castes and christians.the caste organizations of kerala also tried to make profit from this novel.and thus when the real social history surfaces many people find it difficult to believe and accept.

 The author C.V.Raman was a learned man .but at his time travancore state government jobs were mainly given to tamil bhrahmins.new educated malayalees wanted to have jobs in government and they organised and started demanding this need.a memorandum was submitted to king which was signed by thousands demanding appointment of malayalees in administrative jobs of travancore.but it was rejected.later some relaxation was given.many ezhavars awere also signed in that memorandum including Doctor Pulpu ,one of the great reformation personalities of kerala,along with the nairs and others.when government began to accept malayalee youngsters to service,ezhavar and other castes were denied this right.it was like a 100% reservation for the upper class,mainly benefited by nairs.it aroused a new hate and separation between nairs and ezhavars who were now in obc list and were untouchables at the time. but ezhavars were already organised and actively taking part with the reform movements of sndp .nairs and bhrahmins lagged back and were clinging tight to the old customs.many learned persons from upper class including nairs and bhrahmins were actually part of the reform movements and were working even with sndp .eventually removements started in upper class and new organisations were formed.nairs were so few in number.so many small castes , sects and groups joined together and took the umbrella name nairs and formed the organistion named nair service society(nss).after the formation of nss many sects were included in it.eventhough it was a organization meant for the modernization or civilizisation as explained by its leaders at that time ,it eventually became involved in politics after independance and is the most benefited caste organization in kerala.

 
At 4:04 PM, Blogger shan said...

Ananadha padmanabhan is the central or hero of the novel mathanda varma written by C.V.Ramana.this character again appears in another novel by the same author.the marthanda varma novel is also love story between anadha padmanabhn and a nair girl.anantha padmanabhan is a trusted friend and companion of marthanda varma.he is very good in arms and is a good warrior.he saves the king many times from the hands of ettuveetil pillamar.another family is also comes into importance in the novel .it is the mangoikkal family.marthanda varma was saved by that family and in that act the family house was burned down.they helped marthanda varma escape from the enimies and he stays in their family.but the enemies suspecting this attacked the house ,but they were stopped by the paraya (another caste now in scheduled list) soldiers and others of the mankoyikkal family.enemies tried to kill marthanda varma by setting fire to the house but bharathan channan or anantha padmanabhan saves the marthanda varma.in the novel ananthapadmanabhan is made nair by making him the son a thirumukkathu pillai.mankoyikkal family is also made nair by using the word kurup and pillai surnames to its family members some of whom also appears in his another novel dharma rajah.

in reality the anantha padmanabhan is a historic figure and belonged to channar community.his house still exists in kanyakumari district which was constructed by him during the period of marthanda varma king.he was the caprtain of the body guard battallion which included 36 warriors who were all channars selected personnaly by marthanda varma.he was a great friend of marthanda varma and served the king as his minister and army commander.actually he helped marthanda varma is securing the support of channar and nadar community to fight against the madampis of travancore who helped the thampis in their claim to thrown.these powerful feudal lords were trying to kill the marthanda varma.anantha padmanabhan died in the year 1953 after the establishment of travancore kingdom.

the mankoyikkal family also existed and their house too is in kanyakumari district of tamilnadu.kanyakumari was part of the travancore kingdom till 1956.they belonged to channar caste.now the channar caste name is not used.the channar caste and nadar caste combined together in 1925 and is now a single caste.they too held high posts in the period of marthanda varma and rama varma.its likely that they were given the title kurup as they trained soldiers.king marthanda varma also formed a title called chempaka raman pillai which was given to the most eminent personnalities who helped in the government.this title was given to these two families.

 
At 4:04 PM, Blogger shan said...

the word ettuveetil pillamar too was coined by C.V.Raman pillai and got popular in such a way that all, even historians use the same word.but they were not all pillais or anyone of them belonged to caste vellala pillai who now use the surname pillai.these eight houses were very powerful feudal lords and they held influencial posts .ramana madam and pallichal were ministers of attingal soverign of which ramana madom was a bhrahmin family.kulathoor and chempazhanthi were ezhava families.the arms trainer or kalarippayattu teacher of kazhakuttom was an ezhava man named kesava panikker.later he left from kazhakuttom with his diety whom he worshiped to another place called thozhuvancode where he established a temple now known as thozhvancode devi temple.its priests are even today members of his family and those families related to him and also they belonged to ezhava family.there is no bhrahmin priests in that temple.the word used in the old documents for mentioning these people are ettuveetil madampimar and not ettuveetil pillamar.in the document which mention the punishment of these madampis only 4 houses are stated.the reason is that all were not supporters for the eliminations of marthanda varma.because of the popularity of the word ettuveetil pillamar ,through the novel many people thought that all the pillais or nairs were against marthanda varma and it was a fight against nairs and the ruling family and in the fight nairs lost.

the novel was so influencing that many not only historians but also the intellectuals of communist party too were misguided so much that in the books written by them , they mention this as the mass or people revolt against the ruling class or marthanda varma.it also made people to think that nairs were the controlling the state affairs and all the powerful land lords or atleast all the powerful lords were nairs who used to keep a sur name as pillai.this also created a new story that nairs of travncore were against marthanda varma and as ruler he crushed them.this was really not the actual case.nor the nairs were anywhere near to be called powerful for they were so few in number in kerala and travncore.only after the formation nss many castes which were not actually considered nairs were included and thus the number of nairs have increased.earlier these castes were having (still now) seperate caste names and considered nairs to be so much lower to them that even touching them was not allowed.but they used to appoint nairs for their house hold works,but still they were kept aside.the water touched by a nair was not considered good to drink by them (because of the untouchablity practised at the time) doing so was punishable with bhrasht meaning throwing out from their caste and denying all the rights,which included social out casting.even today many castes which joined with nss(nair service society) consider themselves higher than nairs and dont like to got together with so called nairs, eventhough many times they dont use their old sub caste title but generally considered as nairs by others.marriages are not encouraged amoung them or they dont prefer to make an aliance from the nairs.pillais of trivandrum also are part of the nss ,they too are considered as nairs generally.but they use the surname as pillai and not nair.the caste name is vellala pillai.marriages doesnot occur between these castes.in southern districts nairs castes itself is considered as two types.one higher and other lower.generally speaking higher traditionally possess more lands.they generally distance away from the lower nairs.higher nairs generally doesnot support rss or hindu fundalmentalist organisations and movements.

 
At 4:05 PM, Blogger shan said...

Additions and method of changing caste of characters,and alloting caste historical person done by C.V.Raman was later criticized by many others later.but generally that critics literature is not popular among the masses.any way many persons before and after C.V.Raman had done the same thing .alloting castes to 18 siddhars of tamilnadu is one such example ,done by those who transilated their works to malyalayam.this has happened in recent past ,from 70's to till date.many who reads these works only were easily fall to belive that they belonged to that caste or at time of these historic perosns caste system existed and was strong as in later years.even now some new papers knowingly or unknowingly put caste names to persons when they write a feature about historic events.examples can be seen even now in 2012.
there are some works such as kerala mahathmyam,kerala charitham,kerala pazhama etc which claim to be history books.but actually these were written by bhrahmins of kerala during the second half of 19th century or after 1850s.in it many forged stories were written with characters taken from puranas ,ramayana and mahabharatha.the stories of parasurama one purana character throwing axe to sea,story of mahabali and vamana etc are wrtten in these books.no facts or actual history is dealt in these works.but it was claimed that it was written very very early.but it contains reference of british rule,cannons,rifles etc which shows that ,it was written after 19th century.the aim and claim of these works is that kerala is for bhrahmins or bhrahmins are only rigthful owners of kerala.for that parasurama story was forged ,donating of kerala by him to bhrahmins etc were written.ofcourse it was written by bhrahmins of kerala who were leading lasy or easy living in kerala during that period.so in that books they claimed kerala was for them only.

saint sri chatampi swamikal during the first half of 20th century wrote a book named prachena malayalam.in that he claims that he had found some reference in tamil books about nair caste orgin.but that books were not mentioned by him.he goes at length claiming that nairs were desecenders of snake worshipers or naga aradhars lived in kerala long ago.he also argued that these people were called nagas because of their method of worshiping snakes.the main claim of the book is that nairs were there in kerala from time immorial and from the date on which earth was formed and that the nairs were the only authorised owners of kerala or kerala belongs to nairs.its so sad thing that a person who was revered as an acomplished saint could't even rise from the caste thoughts accumulated in him from his childhood.

 
At 4:06 PM, Blogger shan said...

but snake worshiping exists in many parts of india and tamilnadu.the people who do this does have relation to nairs nor do they belong to same caste status.many adivasis and aborgins worship snakes ,so do many other people in india.it have no relation a particular caste.moreover snake worship in kerala have some unique features.rituals ,songs,other performance arts associated with this worship was done some particular caste called pulluvar and not nairs.in any part of the worships of snakes at temples or outside nairs had (and have) no role.in some temples bhrahmins do the worship other rituals being done by other castes such as pulluvars,velans ,parayas etc.but this book had great influence and many persons tried hard to put forward a false theory, that nagas ruled india and the nagas of nagaland are related nairs.but nagas of nagaland are people or mangol orgin came there and settled during the 16th century after the fall of mongol empire in china.they dont even have snake worshiping culture. the reality is that there is no race called nagas who had their mainly worshipers of snake.snake worship has many explainations and is a common feature which can be seen in different parts of india.the snake worship is not every where done with same intention or meaning.in kerala it is related rahu and ketu two imaginary planets included in the hindu solar system.it said that rahu eats moon and when it happens solar eclipse occur.to avoid the evil effects of rahu people in kerala perform snake worship.only out of fear and to eliminate bad or difficult experiences in life that people do snake worship and because of any love and respect to snakes.

 
At 4:07 PM, Blogger shan said...

that book stired confidence in nairs and helped to feel pride.the reasons are many.nairs were called as malayala sudras or the most downward caste in the varna system ,by the bhrahmins of kerala .ealier it was like a pride for the nairs as they were considered in side the varna system and some what part of hindus as they were allowed to enter the temple eventhough with some restrictions.these restriction include denial of ringing bell which was considered sacred,were never allowed to touch or come near the priest,nor were allowed to touch the offerings ,not allowed to enter the place were cooking of dishes meant for offerings.they were also had to move away when the priest come with things for worship.still it was considered as good as many other castes who forms now the majority of hindu religion now were not allowed even to enter the temple.also the bhrahims considered nairs as their servents who were obliged work for them sometimes even without wages.anything given to them were mere the great kindness of the bhrahmins.nair womens were the main maid servents doing house hold works in bhrahmin familes.the nair women were also had to submit to bhrahmins for sex if he desired so.if a bhrahmin comes to a nair house ,he can mate with any women he desires.it was the custom and considered as sacred and blessing.nairs also practiced polygamy ie having more number of husbands(i dont know the correct word in english .the word used popularly with somewhat nicely is sumbandakar meaning men in relation).anyone from bhrahims to nairs can have relation with a nair woman if he desires so.even an order of proclaimation from a travancore king declairing that those nair women who does not submit to wishes (sextual) of men from bharahmins to nairs shall be considered leading an unholy life which is punishable.it is difficult for a nair lady to live alone or with her lover or single husband.if an influencial person desires ,there is nothing she can do.out of the childrens born ladies will get more importance as the children of that girls shall be the next rightful heir of the family.this was because with this system no nair man can declaire strongly that he is the father of a kid for the kids mother had many men mating with her.but the mother of a kid can be identified much more easily as she delivers a kid which have witnesses and there by proof .because of this practise ,which was practiced mainly by nairs,the childrens doesnot know who their father was.it was not a problem till the 20th century.but after that due to reform movements and spread of education this custome began considering to be a shame to them.many great reformers fought against this system .this system does not exists now and is even unlawful.

 
At 4:07 PM, Blogger shan said...

the customs ,practices and even the houses were built according to these needs.those who were wealthy were able to built bigger houses.these big houses built by the nairs have some specialty.the steps leading to the second floor starts right from the veranda.this was to help those visitors or sambandakars.they dont have to enter the house ,they can easily go to the second floor and enter their favourite woman's room.these type of houses can be seen still in many parts of kerala.the namboothiri houses too have some peculiarity.that part where homas are done doesnot have second floor that was to avoid filling of smoke into the second floor.nairs where the main servants of the namboothiri families without them it was difficult for the bhrahmins to maintain their houses.namoothiris called nairs valyakkar(servents),adiyars(slaved like servants) ,sudras(lowest in varna system) etc.this was also considered by the nairs as a great thing they have pride in telling others that they were the adiyars of that or this mana(house of naboothiri).

further the customs followed by the namboothiri families were so ridiculus and now it seems unbelivable and nowadays they too feel shame to tell all that.but it is the true past and nothing to gain from concealing and covering it.reformation movements which started in india has changed the most degraded society of india and also it has helped to better the lives of all ,also the indian independence too was the result of such movements.that all movements helped people to come together ,meet and discuss the problems in the society.open talking was the base thing for the progress.but there were practices of untouchability.if a bhrahmin touches a nair it was taught he gets poluted and have to do penance and bathing .there were others such as ezhavar,thiyyar,pulayas etc whom if the namboothiri come closer beyond some limit then the namboothiri had to bath before he enter his house or temple.these namboothiris were commonly the priests of the temples belonging to the ruling family and other savarnas.there were worshiping systems and places for the ezhavars and thiyyas ,it was some sort of small temples ,but there all the poojas and worships were conducted by the persons from amoung them.pulayar and parayar were also had some form of worshiping .their main worshipping figure was goddess nowadays considered as kali(kali was a common name amoung them from very early period).they too perfomed poojas themselves.it may be interesting to point out here that kali was the cheif goddess worshipped by the warriors of india.eventhough pulayar and parayar were considered to the most downward caste earlier,actually they had a golden past.the words pulayar and parayar were in use in early times of sangam age when these were the names associated people who were the main men nearer to the then kings.sangam literature depicts of pictures of possessions of kings accompanied by pulayar and parayar.also modern researches shows that many places in kerala had kingsor rulers belonging to this caste.even today in second decade of 21st century they are the ones who raise the pride of kerala by winning medals in athletics and other strenious sports.

 
At 4:07 PM, Blogger shan said...

The savarnas( the term was mainly used by namboothiris to denote themselves earlier) were much interested in creating castes and new subcastes.this created a lot of subcastes amoung the so called upperclass.bhrahmins of kerala was also divided by different subcastes.the top most is the wealthy namboothiris called as addyians and poor was called aasiyans. As found every where poor did't got much respect and their situation did't improved much. They were given jobs to assist wealthy namboothiris as servants.in the 20th century there were many namoothiri hotels which served food for money.but at first they were mainly intented for the bhrahmins,some permitted upto nairs but for them seperated place and plates were used.but avarnas were not served there.at that time all the workers in these hotels were namboothiri. Later it these namboothiri hotels meant reduced to the hotel name ,that means the workers were taken from all castes even from other religion too. All were allowed to dine there.

Even with highest social status the customs of bhrahmins of kerala was too pathetic. Only the first son of the family was allowed to marry.other sons have no right to marry.but they can mate with any women upto nairs. Not all but some kshatriya families of kerala were ready to allow their ladies to enter in relation with these namboothiris . the most infamous amoung these family was the cochin rulers or thrippunithura kovilakam.these practice created a lot of branches headed with seperated women. The namoothiris which entered in relation with these royal families were like in service or like given job.they were treated well money was given to them and to their familes. Ofcourse these money came from the state treasury and to the treasury from the working people.the income generating people were the farmers , traders and few industrialists.they made the majority of kerala population and consists mainly of so called avarnas which included ezhavar,pulayar and others.but they were not given recognition and rights. Ezhavars which forms the largest community of kerala is belived to be the Buddhist followers earlier.learning institutes were maintained by them which offered studying sanskrit and tamil languages. Medical treatment was one of their main occupation.anyone who is brilliant enough to learn sanskrit and medicine was allowed to learn in these institutes and can become a doctor. They were revered by the royal families and the namboothiris even during the period of untouchabilities. But the rules for untouchability was always relaxed when question of survival and workability comes.numerous stories and court case records shows these practices. Trade and factories were mainly run by the members belonged to this caste.

 
At 4:08 PM, Blogger shan said...

the ambalavasi caste in kerala is that caste consists of people who were living doing jobs related to temples.this caste consists numerous subcastes.they doesn't were the owners or authorities of the temples but were doing the jobs such as cleaning,sweeping,singing,using drums and other instruments etc.they were not allowed to do the poojas which was done mainly by the bhrahmins.the bhrahmins many times were the authorities of these temples and they were the people who handle the income to the temple.at that time the temple income was mainly from the state treasury,given by the kings.this helped the owners or namboothiris to live well without necessary for doing any useful work.those persons living with jobs related to temples or ambalavasis were actually were dependentant on bharhmins as they can be denied job at any stage by these bhrahmins.so naturally they tried to keep the bhrahmins satisfied.they too practised the sambandam or were ready to entertain namboothiris with their women lot.bhrahmins entered into sambandan or a concubineship with these familes.it was not considered or accepted as marriage by the bhrahmin comunity.still the ambalavasis prefered to get a bhrahmin relation for their woman. this was way they have found to keep their job secure and income intact.so they prefer to have bhrahmin relative.if the namboothiri was a learned man and have income it was an added advantage for them.but generally if not all ,the members of ambalavasi castes are very poor and lagged behind in kerala.this was not because of any social backwardness but because of their way living superstitions.many tend to pursue their traditional occupation which have less income.their reluctance to modern education was also another reason.still they are not too poor to live as they can live by finding job and food from the temples even now.

 
At 4:09 PM, Blogger shan said...

but why the caste name nair got so famous and became known to all keralites despite kerala was divided in different countries ruled by many kings.why was the caste name nair be selected and claimed as all same from kshtriyas to bottom most caste of savarnas as nair.its one of the classic examples which shows how the mind set of people can be changed with education which was far distanced or have no corelation to the actual facts.it has been shown earlier that the word nair itself was not considered as a good word and it contained a bad meaning attached to it and how untiringly many have tried to give new meaning to it.the word was not mentioned in any official records such as stone inscriptions,land records ,orders from the king etc.one other reason for this may be it denoted a very small subcaste mainly employed as house hold servents.even no good literature in the medivial kerala used that word.but there were some reference to this caste indirectly in some literatures such as chambu set of literature which uses a mixture language of malayalam and sanskrit ,which was more popular amoung the bhrahmins of kerala.but from the second quarter of 19th century this word nair became popular slowly.this was because of the modern english education.some how when portughese came to kerala they some how got the idea that the soldiers of kerala were all nairs.may be they called the soldiers as nairs.in the books and writings they wrote they used the word nair to denote the soldiers of kerala.they being came from a thick and last era of fedualism,where class division of society was strong ,they were easy pray to the misunderstanding that nairs where the soldiers or nairs alone where the soldiers of kerala.this misconcept was passed on to others and was continued by other europeans such as detch ,english and french.these other later europeans learned about kerala from the writings of portughese.they too absorbed the prejudice that nairs were all soldiers or the kerala soldiers were all nairs.this passed unchecked so mcuh that in almost all the writings the word nair was used to denote the army of kerala.when the english education was introduced in kerala in the second decade of 19th century ,this same misconcept was later taught to the kerala children in schools and thus the misconcept and prejudices were taught to the actual people itself.and above all even today many learned persons and even historians thinks that nairs are the only soldiers of kerala.But in reality many nairs were not soldiers or have nothing to do with warfare.

it quite possible that portughese used the word nair knowing its bad meaning to denote the soilders of kerala armies to which they had frequent querrel and fights.they hated keralites and soildiers of kerala to whom they have to fight.word nair being used to harase or mention a down troden man whose only task he was permitted to do was to serve the bhrahmins with atmost loyality and who were used to be called the sudras of kerala by the bhrahmins.in manusmrithi the sudra word is defined as that person who should do all types of labour to a bhrahmin with atmost loyality without expecting anything in return like that of a dog.the malayalam word of dog is naya.in malaylam lexicon the word nair is said to orgin from this word naya.kanippayoor sangarn namboothiri says sudras loyality is compared to dog in manusmrithi and other sanskrit texts.bhrahmins who were aware of this may have coined the word nair from the malayalam word naya and have give to these servants and made them belive it to be honoroble name.

 
At 4:09 PM, Blogger shan said...

portughese knowing this may have used the nair to satisfy their hatred towards kerala people.eventhough they were aware that nairs were not military people and portughese too were used to appoint soilders in their service for guarding their factory and into their armies.these people who they were accoustomed with, majority of whom were not nairs.for nairs were generally considered as slaves of bhrahmins.it should be noted in particular that even the british who conqured and ruled india did not considered indian soildiers as equal to british soildiers.they called indian soilders as sipoyees meaning peons or chowkidars or servants.these sepayees were made to do the house hold works of british soildiers and other petty services to them.if the british have kept such an attitute then what shall be the attitude of portughese towards indians and keralaites for the mutual hatred was the sole connection between them and keralaites.

 
At 4:09 PM, Blogger shan said...

it should also be noted that the sambandam by namboothiris with kshathriyas and ambalavasis were different than with the nairs.the bhrahmins used to live in the houses of these kshathriyas and ambalavasi familes with whom they have started sambandam.usually the ladies doesnot have other males in relation to her.that is kshtriyas and ambalavasis used to make sambandam with only one namboothiri at a time if not for the life time.it was like a marriage as the man and lady live together in the same house just like husband and wife.even though the namboothiris doesnot consider this as a marriage and children born in this relation had no right on the father and also on the property and wealth he ever possessed.this was not the case with the nairs.not only namboothirs but anyone from bhrahmin to nairs can have relations with any nair women.she can have any number of males as she desires at the same time.these men does not stay at these nair houses nor they drink water or take food from these houses as it was considered an act punishable with bhrasht under social laws.the namoothiris or bhrahmins doesnot enter in relation or mate with a nair lady if she is a virgin.its said that they were not ready to pull a lady to prostitution as it was a sin which would fall on them.so the nairs practiced a custom or ritual just after a lady attains puberty or mensuration.a ceremony was conducted in which the girl was declaired to attain womanhood.then her mother invites a man from a sub caste of nairs who would mate with lady accepting presence or money.this subcaste does't exists now.but they were held in high esteem till the end of 19th century.they would only accept the invitation only when satisfied by the money and presents given to them.in some places a ritual marriage was also arranged which would last only for few days.when this phase is over the family can invite namboothiris and others to enter sambandam with the girl.the namboothirs and others were now come to have relation with her.these men come only at night and if there is no one he can sleep with the woman he choosed.but he would not stay there after the sun rise and never take food or drink even water.it may sound unbelivable now but it was the social custome practiced by the nairs till 20th century.it seized to exists only with the modern education and social reform movements.after independance this practise was declaired unlawful by framing new laws.

 
At 4:10 PM, Blogger shan said...

in many books written in malayalam and english the word orgin is discussed.from the social history of kerala some
excerpts are quoted here."
In Brahminic Hinduism dog and hound have come to occupy an important position.
Even in the English language, phrases like watch-dog, dog-like loyalty and dogged
resistance are expressions of high literary acceptability. Kampil Ananthan in his open
letter (1952) addressed to R. Narayana Panicker, a Malayalam lexicographer pointed out
that the domestic services in Sanskrit were swavrithy (suna- eva-vrithy) which is given as
"sevaswa vritl ralthyata" in Manusmruti and sevaswa vrithy in Amarakosa and, therefore
he comes to the conclusion like Kanippayyoor that the term Nayar means one who serves
the Nampootiri with dog-like loyalty (for further meaning refer to pp. 53-54 of the Open
Letter). Even otherwise Manusmriti loudly proclaims that the Sudras' occupation is to
render services at the foot of the Brahmin and the other two varnas. At the time when the
Kerala Sudras fully trusted the Nampootiri and hailed him god, he had cleverly coined
the term Nayar concealing the meaning of it but making them believe that it was an
honorific."

but the unbelivable thing is that those who followed them used the word nair to denote the soilders of kerala.many never seen kerala and those who visited were not aware of the social setup of kerala.many who visited kerala have already read books about kerala written by their forecomers and were driven by the prejudices.this continued and in 400 years that word gradually got accepatance and today many keep that word in their surname thinking it has great meaning.what shall a person,who have lived 400 years ago think when he hears such names.he may have laughed and says what pitty.

 
At 4:10 PM, Blogger shan said...

it have been shown earlier that the army commander of marthanda varma was anantha pathmanabhan who was a channan or nadar and not a nair.he was also the commander of the personal body guard battalion of the king.it consists of 36 warriors selected by the king personnaly.they were all channars.in many victorious battles conducted by marthanda varma the commander was ramayyan who was not a nair.his caste is not known clearly.he was born in tamilnadu and came into the serice of the travancore king at a very young age.for many years he was considered as a bhrahmin,but some have pointed out that he belonged to the maravar community of tamilnadu.what it is clear is that he is not a nair .kanakku ,pillai,chempaka raman etc were given as titles to the courters or to those who were in service or to those who have done service to the king. it was not given on community basis nor to a particular caste.it cant be competetant persons are to be taken to service and it cannot be found from a particular caste,not always from upper caste .

in kerala the largest about one third population is ezhavars another caste.many ezhavars were in military service in olden days.not only they were soilders but also were commanders and officers in the armies.varnapalli family was the army chiefs and ministers of kayamkulam kingdom, so was ambanattu panikkar in service of ambalapuzha kingdom,ambantttu family of kollam was another ezhava family in service of kollam or desinganadu principality.Akathayyadi panicker was the cheif army commander of elaidatthu soroopam or kottarakkara kingdom.(Ref: Pathonmpatham noottandile keralam by Bhaskaranunni),Renakeerthy and dharmakeerthi chekavars - Commandor of Marthandavarma. (Ref: Travancore state manual.).ezhavars were largely in the service of cochin kingdom ,sankthan thampuran specialy appointed a ezhava military betallion in the guard of vadakkum nathan temple , commanded by a ezhava officer.in malabar area ezhavar were largely addressed by the name thiyyar and chekavar.chevam means military service in malayalam.those who were soldiers were known as chekavar.as thiyyars were so much in military service that ,it became another caste name of ezhavars.the word chaver pada or suicidal squad was actually derived from the word chekavar.whether it actually existed a question still not answered.

 
At 4:11 PM, Blogger shan said...


in modern age too majority of the martial arts school of kalarippayattu or kalaris are run by ezhava caste.all the ancient kalaries still existed are owned and run by them.in trivandrum where southern style is more popular its run by another caste ,nadars.nairs are not much in the kalari training or teaching.but the famous cvn kalari was started by c v narayan nair was a nair.but his teacher was a thiyya guru.kannur is famous for gymnastics and circus.the circus companies of kerala were founded and owned by thiyyas.it was because they had the practise of learinging kalarippayattu which gives very importance to acrobatics again due to the martial history of that community.keeleri kuzhikannan was the first to start circus company in india.

it is also a common misconcept that bhrahmins were the sole keepers of sanskrit language.but actually many books in sanskrit was written by bhuddhist and jains.in kerala during mediveal period sanskrit was actually taught by medical practitioners ,astrologers etc.these schools were mainly run by buddhist familes or ezhava familes.until the 20th century majority of these schools were run by them also it should be noted that many other castes were also used to run such schools.ayurvedic phisicians were ezhava and nadar familes ,also it was practised by some bhrahmin families and other castes which are now in obc list.

 
At 2:59 PM, Blogger ajaya ghosh said...

nair-malayala kshtariya


ada shana orikalum shudran forward castil varila







 
At 3:01 PM, Blogger ajaya ghosh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 3:32 PM, Blogger ajaya ghosh said...

Subdivisions Home

The Malayala Kshatriyas are divided in to more than 200 subdivisions. But In general, they can be categorized in to four main divisions – Nair Superior, Nair Proper, nair auxillary and Nair Inferior.


Nair Superior:

Nair Superior clans composed the Royal or ruling dynasties of Kerala. Out of the 161 Royal houses of Kerala, 157 were Nair, 3 were Nambudiri and One was Muslim.

Broadly, the ruling clans can be divided in to two – koil thampurans and samantan nairs.

Koil thampurans are very few in number, and major clans among them include the royal families of cochin and beypore. Current population is somewhere around 5,000.

Koil thampuran clans:

(1) Perumpadappu Swaroopam (Royal Family of Cochin)
(2) Koil Thampurans of Travancore (a total of 10 clans – Kilimanoor, Keerthipuram, Pallam, Paliyakkara, Nirazhi, Anantapuram, Chemprol, Cherukol, Karamma & Vatakkematham)
(3) Puranatt Swaroopam (Royal Family of Kottayam)
(4) Royal Family of Beypore
(5) Royal Family of Kondungalloor
(6) Royal Family of Vettatnad (Extinct)

Samantan nairs are slightly more numerous. Royal families of Travancore, chirakkal, Calicut.etc are samantan nairs. Currently they number more than 50,000 individuals, divided in to more than 150 clans.

Major samantannair clans:

(1) Nediyiruppu Swaroopam (Royal Family of Calicut or Zamorins)
(2) Venad Swaroopam (Royal Family of Travancore)
(3) Kola Swaroopam (Royal Family of Kolathunad / Chirakkal)
(4) Thirumukhom (Most notably Pillais of Ettuveedu and Naluveedu)
(5) Thampi (Clans in Aramana,Puthumana, Kallada, Mupidakka, Chavara, Pulimoodu, Vadasseri, Thiruvattar & Nagarcoil)
(6) Valiyathan (Clans in Vattaparambil,Thottathil, Medayil.etc)
(7) Unnithan (Clans in Edasseri,Kunnath, Manthiyath, Marangatt, Munjanatt, Pullelil, Manappallil.etc)
(8) Kartha / Karthavu (Royal Family of Meenachil, Clans in Ranni, Karimattath, Cheraneloor, Mannamparambath, Alangad.etc)
(9) Kaimal (Raja of Anjikaimalnadu, Clans in Vaikattillam, Niranampetti, Thachudaya.etc)
(10) Samantan Menon (Royal Family of Palghat)
(11) Samantan Nambiar (Royal Family of Kadathanad, Clans in Randuthara, Randillom, Mavila, Koodali, Kalliat.etc)
(12) kidav
(13) Pulavayi Swaroopam
(14) Arangottu Swaroopam (Royal Family of Valluvanad)
(15) Nedunganad Swaroopam
(16) Nayanar (Clans in Edathil,Erambala, Varikara & Vengayil)
(17) Adiyodi (Clans in Tekkadi & Vadakkadi)
(18) Kurangott Swaroopam
(19) Kuthiravattath Swaroopam


Nair Proper:

Nair PROPER is the aristocratic and soldier class of Kerala. There are four subdivisions among them. Altogether the nair proper number somewhere around 4,000,000 to 5,000,000 people, concentrated in Kerala and neighbouring states.

The four nair subdivisions are:

1. Kiryathil Nair
2. Illathu Nair
3. Swaroopathil Nair
4. Charna Nair

 
At 1:02 AM, Blogger vineethprabhanandan said...

@ ajaya ghosh and all other nair "pramanees" i'm vineeth who belongs to ezhava community ...
"ഇനി ഉള്ള കാര്യം പറയാം ...പാരമ്പര്യവും സംസ്കാരവും ഒക്കെ അവിടെ നിലക്ട്ടെ അതൊക്കെ ആര്ക്കും എപ്പോൾ വെനമെങ്ക്കിലും വളച്ചൊടിക്കാം ...പുതിയ ശാസ്ത്ര പഠനം അനുസരിച്ച് നിങ്ങൾ നയന്മ്മരെക്കാൾ ഒരുപാട് മുൻപിൽ ആണ് ഞങളുടെ സ്ഥാനം ..ഇത് ഹിന്ദുവിൽ പ്രസ്ധികരിച്ച ഒരു ലെഖനം ആണ് ...വായിച്ചു നോക്ക് ശാസ്ത്രീയമായി തെളിയിച്ചതാണ് അല്ലാതെ ഒരു പഴം കഥകളുടെയും ചുവടു പിടിച്ചല്ല ...ലിങ്ക് താഴെ ചേര്ക്കുന്നു "

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/ezhavas-has-got-a-paternal-lineage-of-european-origin-study/article2473292.ece

 
At 3:34 PM, Blogger ajaya ghosh said...

"vineeth"


forward caste(general)

nair(kshatriya)-savarna


nigal ezhava(obc) avarna mansilakiko

 
At 4:26 PM, Blogger പാച്ചു said...

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At 12:19 AM, Blogger Depressingh said...

Hehe.. I had a nice laugh sitting back and enjoying the caste wars. Nairs trying to prove themselves more elite than others and non-Nairs trying to destroy their egos. So much for 100% literacy.

My personal thoughts :

1. The caste system is artificial, some clever folks distorted it a few centuries ago and used it to their advantages. This nation is still paying the price. Judging by some of the comments above, looks like we still haven't had enough.
2. If you take a Nair kid, don't let him and his next 100 generations study, make them work in the fields for a pittance, insult them, beat them up at the slightest pretext, take away their self-esteem and honour, you will have a Shudra/untouchable/dalit.
Same way, take a dalit kid and educate him and his next 10 generations, give them power over the Nairs, political and economic power. After a few hundred years, tell me who is a Nair and who is the Dalit. Common sense people..please
3. Homo Sapiens have been around for almost 2 lakh years, our ancestors like the Australopithecus Afarensis etc were there a few million years ago... Caste system came around a couple of thousand years ago.
4. For my upper caste friends who hate the caste based reservation system - I am a Nair, I don't like it too, it's not fair. Yes. But can you imagine how lucky we are. In any other country where a minority group brutally subjugates a majority based on baseless classifications of caste and race, the subjugated minority rises in rebellion and quells the oppressors. Check out what happened in Rwanda. We guys got off fairly lightly.
5. I have Ezhava friends who are very cultured, educated, good looking, fair if you consider that an attribute. I have relatives, obviously Nair, who are uneducated, poor, dark complexioned. So what...?
6. If your kid needs a critical surgery, will you insist that only a surgeon of the highest caste perform the surgery? Or will you refuse if the surgeon is a Baniya or a Jat or a Muslim or a Dalit? Do you care about the caste of the fruit vendor, the police, the army men? If you get an option to marry off your daughter to a Nair guy who has a past record of torturing women or to a decent, honest Ezhava, Thiyya, Baniya, Gujjar..what will you do?..

In a universe 14 billion years old and quadrillions of miles wide, a planet 5 billion years old, where living cells first came up 2-3 billion years ago, with zillions of galaxies and stars and planets, are we really fighting about caste, creed, religion and fucking skin color... yeah yeah..

Cheers all!

- Just another 'Nair' who doesn't give a damn about caste.


 
At 10:32 AM, Blogger REAL HISTORY said...

Everyone please try to understand the facts :

1. If nairs claim that they belong to savarna category, they are only SHUDRAS.
2. When the Namboothiri class came to kerala they need some people to serve them by all means, and the so called Nairs were ready to do that. True servents to namboothiris.
3. Nairs pretend that they belong to some high class. How come servant class become high class.
4. How come the nairs call others as untouchables as they are also untouchables.
5. Nairs do not have any speciality other than what they have earned from Namboothiris by doing servent job.
6. Who told all the kalaris were run by nairs. Most of the major hi profile military jobs were honoured to Ezhavas . The actual history was not written.
7. History written was biased, intentionally giving nair community more importance.
8. Most of the nairs houses have backdoors where the namboothiri used to get in and out after the ASAMBANDHAM, Is this the greatness ?? What a shame !
9. Varmas are not nairs, can you make this acceptable to any Varma caste people.
10. Nairs must understand how bad they betrayed their fellow communities and claiming they have come from moon.
11. The tail names used by nair community like Menon, Pilla, kurup, etc were not caste names, they are all job titles. Menon means Clerk. Pilla mens kanakka pilla. These names were given to peoples of other castes too.

 
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